Girls beating up boys

Okay, scallops, I get that offending someone who is into BDSM is not exactly the same as making homophobic comments.

I am Australian. So if someone makes an "Australians are stupid" joke (and believe me there are lots of them) I know it's not the same as racism.

It doesn't mean I don't find it offensive, though.

They don't though. The men who have it said to them understand that it means get stuffed, as the girls walk off laughing.

I'm guessing "fuck off you snotty bitch" would be the reaction.

messy I'd love to see that too!

If there are people who genuinely see that as some kind of opening negotiation then maybe it's safer not to use it in case the perverts also use that kind of logic - which I wouldn't put past them seeing as they already obviously view women as objects.

If you want to stop girls saying it you either need to find something better in every way and get it out there somehow

or go into schools or child websites and educate as to why they shouldn't say it

(or take away the need for them to say it in the first place which would be the best result)

Yes Jassy, agreed. Another one is when I hear girls and women use the "grow some balls" "don't be a girl" remarks to put men or boys down. It's always bothered me, because essentially it is endorsing the patriarchal viewpoint that men are superior. However it is quick, effective and is in a language that is understood by everyone and I suspect that's why it's used.

Maybe we should come up with a list of sharp retorts to come back with that are feminist.

I would love to have the guts to arch my eyebrow and skilfully say "do you really think that your possession of a penis, a complete accident of birth by the way, gives you the authority to disturb my right to peacefully occupy public space, whilst retaining that privilege for yourself?!"

I would love to know the reaction!

Apocalypse Agree, it's why I prefer it to just "fuck off". Though maybe a variation on "when hell freezes over" might end up being preferable now?

so now we have two people on the thread who see children saying you can't afford it to creepy men as opening negotiations!

What is going on here? It is something teenage girls commonly day to creepy men. It does not mean or in any way imply that they are selling sex. The girls know that, and the men they say it to know that.

I still don't think that the comment was offensive, but can see that as Frau already feels "got at" that it's a sensitive subject. I can now understand why she took it in a, to me, slightly unusual way. Which isn't me judging her, just saying that I genuinely couldn't see where she was coming from before, but now do - even if I still disagree.

Thinking about it - in that situation is want a retort that's about the man and his body, and even be pretty crude about it, than make it about my body.

We're in a culture we're women's bodies are seen increasingly as a commodity, so anything that works against the dominant perception gets my vote.

I rarely said fuck off to men like that though as it felt more confrontational and at 13 or 14 I don't know I don't think I would have aid that to an adult even one who was being a perve.

I get that - my issue is that it implies that there is a price that would be acceptable, it's just high.

I'm finding it laughable that taking the piss out of some creepy fucker's sexual preferences is akin to racial/ableist/homophobic abuse. One being illegal, the other, not so much. One being directed at an oppressed group, the other, not so much.

But that's patriarchy for you.

But I do agree with messy about using the patriarchy's language (and why we use it). A lightbulb moment there thank you.

Jassy I would think it is fairly effective as a comeback. "You can't afford it" works on a number of levels:
it implies that the woman is better than the man
the woman is judging the man
the woman is saying the man is unattractive i.e. he has to pay for sex as no-one would do it voluntarily

As a sexist creep is someone who judges and looks down on woman I would think they would hate this comeback as it does exactly the same back to them.

in my case it's because it's what teenage girls say to creepy men who proposition them on the street. I probably said it myself when I was a girl. The meaning to me is very clear and always had been and was to the men it was said to.

I am really shocked that this comment can be interpreted as opening negotiations hence my comment about Rotherham. The girls there and in other cases got referred to as child prostitutes when they were abused children. I had no idea that a comment so obviously meaning fuck off not in a million years could be taken as opening negotiations and I suppose for me that's a shock and something to think on in terms of attitudes towards teenage girls.

"This implied that BDSM was "more expensive" than other sex acts."

Hmm. I think if OP had been "have you ever given a hand job behind the bike sheds" the "you can't afford that" response would've been the same.

Slightly off topic, but if sex acts are being paid for, isn't BDSM more expensive than "vanilla"?

Shall I start a thread on patriarchal put downs to see if we can find alternatives?

messy, I always find "Fuck off!" (as suggested by FrauHelga up thread) to be quite succinct, and generally understood by men and women, alike.

Bella, perhaps you need to consider who may be reading your comments, then, and that they might upset people not on the thread, yet.

You see so often someone using a disablist term to agree with other posters, who then respond that they agree with the sentiment, but can't condone the disablist language.

Just because you have always said something doesn't mean you can't revise it, if you now have further information that what you say may be offensive.

Harold I think that's because of the heavy use of "I" in Frau's initial reaction.

Sanity I did clarify that I wasn't privy to Asaman's thoughts.

But I think I can safely say that no one here would negatively judge Frau for what she does in the privacy of her own home and which is based on mutual happy consent. Well I can't safely say that! But I'm assuming!

I think it's useful to be able to consider whether our 'standard' responses to things are problematic and what lies behind them. I'll admit that I have never liked 'you couldn't afford it mate' with or without links to BDSSM because to me it implies the commodification of sex and/or women's bodies - the implication being if there was enough money involved, either purely transactional or in the context of a relationship, then it'd be fine.

To be its not a million miles from saying 'Sure, I'm for sale, but I'm bloody expensive'. Which I find difficult, though appreciate it isn't the sentiment a lot of people mean when they say it. Would be interesting to know how sexist hits 'hear' it - ie its effectiveness as a comeback.

Personally I would never respond to a perv "you can't afford me"

"But perhaps it helps to understand her post to realise that there have been a lot of thread about Dom stereotypes lately and that she is just a bit fed up of them. The straw that broke the camel's back."

Oh ok, I've only just joined so hadn't seen any other threads about it. Sorry Frau, didn't realise.

I think Frau has made a very valid point.

As for other people's intentions, all you can really say is I took it this way, but you will have to verify with the poster.

It seems a bit daft to me to say you can't be offended by something mentioned on a thread before you turned up because it clearly wasn't aimed at you? Of course you can.

"I just don't understand why so many posters are so sure of what she meant, and feel entitled to speak for her."

Because her post was exactly what I would have written.

Thanks. I think that's why becoming feminist can be a bit isolating because the new language you've acquired is not mainstream nor does it give itself to short pithy retorts. I can't imagine the amount of eye rolling I would have to endure if I brought up even the word "patriarchy" over Sunday roast!