Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

Regarding films, I don't believe people set out to make sexist films as such, I agree with that. But so, so often male is just the default. It is a bit like how most of us will call an animal of unknown sex 'he'. Writing a character, it is male unless the scenario demands otherwise iyswim. If that wasn't happening there would be a lot more female lead characters. I can enjoy a given film, but I can't let go of that wider picture either. Also look at the new Ghostbusters for the vitriol one when tries to swim against thay.

Actually, about two years ago I decided, based on a recommendation from an old poster called Stewie, to read only books by women for six months. It was really eye opening. When I added male authors back in I had been really sensitised to how badly female charcters are often utilised and drawn.

haha yes, I don't know what a feminist hat would look like. Some sort of beret, I hope.

It does make sense that you don't feel comfortable objectifying anyone's body, I understand that. But sometimes I think, heck, it's looking at a thing of beauty move in a beautiful way, is it so bad to enjoy it? I don't see it as any different to ballet (but I guess that has its own issues).

Yes I agree that society is misogynist. I've always considered myself to be a feminist from a young age (even if I didn't know the word, I still remember massively annoying teachers at primary school saying "why can't I do that just because I am a girl?"), and I do think it is important for people to engage with it in a way that is helpful and convenient to them. I am dismayed at people who "don't need", "don't support" or "don't agree with" feminism. But I don't think it's productive to question MN users who don't engage by posting here - maybe they only come to MN for certain things, maybe they aren't interested in discussing FGM or catcalling or whatever, I don't think that is wrong. I don't discuss things like rights for people with disabilities, even though I hope I am not at all disabalist and would absolutely support those who are motivated to fight for those rights.

Also, I don't think FWR regulars should be disheartened if there are lurkers who don't post for whatever reason - I am sure I am not the only person who has learned a lot, had a great deal of food for thought and will wave the feminist flag more enthusiastically as a result, even if you don't know the username.

It's interesting that you say resistance and facing things head on makes you feel better. I have pondered this a lot recently. I have become more vocal recently and people have noticed and commented on it, and I question if it does make me feel better. Sometimes people's comments are quite mocking and pejorative, so I wonder if it is worth the hassle. I am the one who is going to feel worse at the end of the day - they will forget it, but I will still feel rage hours, days or weeks later because it is something I feel passionate about. And that does me no favours. So while I see why some people feel better by tackling things, I see why others, for personal reasons, would prefer to stay out even if they are supportive of the issue. It isn't necessarily apathy, so I don't think people need to be too upset by lurkers who don't post - the fact they are lurking is a huge win in itself.

Penguins, I've always been a feminist although I wasn't super "out" about it. Having kids has turned me in to an out and proud radical feminist though

I can see what you mean and where you are coming from as a dancer, but the majority of people watching it won't be able to see it from that perspective because we aren't dancers. It's like pole dancing (let me finish!) whenever it gets discussed people talk about the raw skill involved (and no doubt there is) but you can't ignore the other stuff too.

I'm just talking about Xfactor because I watch it (well DH does, so I'm watching it by dafault) and it's horribly sexist and I don't believe the producers care about the dancers talent more than they see them as very carefully chosen eye candy. That's not me being dismissive or not seeing the talent I just disagree with why they were put there.

I am on my phone but will try to join in with longer posts over the weekend (I need a big proper keyboard as I touch type and my frustration overcomes me otherwise). Have thought a bit about breastfeeding and will add my 2p.

In the meantime, I liked The Equality Illusion as one of my first feminist reads.

I would also be interested to know how many women were tuned in to feminism by parenthood. A combination of the sudden workplace experiences, the sudden divergence of my day to daylife and DH during mat leave, the gender stereotyping and realising the sexualisation of the society my Dd's would grow up in really opened my eyes.

Hello everyone! I've been a lurker on here for a while, I've really enjoyed reading your opinions and have often composed replies in my head. I thought I'd join in on this one as I don't feel like I'm running the risk of providing a 'wrong' answer and getting shouted at. Hopefully posting on here will make me brave enough to venture out onto the board at some point.

And I don't think they can be fairly described as stage props - If they were just stood about flashing their boobs then yes, but if they are doing a very challenging routine I don't see how anyone can deny that the emphasis is on their talent. They are in the background but they are backing dancers, so that is to be expected.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant on about dancers in this thread , it's just this illustrates to me how some people feel about debating on this board, I feel that some of the opinions that are put forward bother me but I can't quite articulate why, and then if I do try and don't get it quite right I just feel a bit silly and wrong. So I sit and read instead, nod along to the sage thoughts and just gloss over the ones that niggle at me slightly. Probably not the best way to go through life, but possibly the least exhausting.

Hi Buffy,

Yes, I see that totally in a way but I feel like if we look for the sexism in absolutely everything we drive ourselves crazy. The flipside of that is maybe there is sexism in absolutely everything, but we still end up crazy.

I don't see it as women's bodies being beautiful objects, I see it as a dancer's body being a beautiful object because of the way it is being used, but I maybe am biased because I love dance, I completely accept that that may be the case. But I don't think it's anything like podium girls in the Tour de France, or Page 3, or women in Lynx adverts - women in those situations are doing nothing but standing around looking beautiful. Female dancers are doing something, and I think being dismissive of their profession and saying their skill is entirely wiped out by the fact they are being objectified (that's what it felt like some people were saying on the other thread) feels a bit condescending -I doubt many professional dancers would see it that way. If I look at the pro women on Strictly, sometimes they wear nothing more than a bit of strategically placed ribbon, and it is eye-popping, I think they look amazing but then they start dancing and that's where the magic is. Sure they could do the dance in a more modest dress, but then they could also do it in leggings and a baggy t-shirt from Sainsbury's, but it wouldn't be as eye catching. The costumes in themselves are a work of art, but that's another issue. I feel like with dance it's an entire package - the dancer and the choreography are the meat, the costumes, lighting, makeup etc are what makes it special, and it should be fun.

Hi AskAMan, I see what you are saying, but I still don't think it's the case. I think it depends on what the viewer is looking for. It's like if I go to the cinema with my feminist hat on (I rue the day that I read about the Bechdel test on here...), I am looking for sexism and it ruins my enjoyment of what has been set up for entertainment - I don't think most people set out to make sexist films. If I go with my "I just want a couple of hours away from the world" hat on, I can still accept that a rom com is a load of shit but still enjoy myself. That doesn't mean I don't think we should combat casual sexism and objectification and stuff, but I do think sometimes the wrong and easy target is picked.

And I don't want to get all Diet Coke Ad, but there definitely are men dancing around in skimpy outfits. I've seen two girlbands on tour in the last 6 months (don't judge me ) and while all of them were gorgeous, their outfits weren't particularly shocking, and their male dancers were topless for a large part of each show and playing up their sex appeal. Obviously it is nowhere near as widespread, where there is an objectified man there are probably 100 objectified women, and that is a problem. And while we are all conditioned to think it is normal to see a woman dance in what is essentially lingerie, if a man does is in something equally skimpy it usually looks ridiculous - you'd only usually see this for something relatively avant-garde like Lady Gaga or Kylie, or for something totally camp and going for the pink pound, like It's Raining Men. That is also a problem, I get that. But the way some posters on the other thread made their point felt like an attack and a dismissal of female dancers, almost in a "bless, they don't even realise they are being exploited" kind of way. So I see why people get put off even bothering to discuss it.

Good thread Cailindana. Could be really useful and interesting.

katee I think the problem with the xfactor dancers is that they are all dressed in a way as to be almost stage props? And quite often over sexualised stage propes. They are obviously hugely talented but it's all done in a way that doesn't put an emphasis on that (if that makes sense?) there is never a male equivalent either which makes it shitty. I've never seen Strictly but it might be better as it's a show about dancers. (or people learning to dance anyway!) Xfactor is really sexist in general I find though.

I am very cross about the fact that the world discriminates against me due to my lack of willy. Surely being ranty is a very sensible response? I don't recall any social change movement in history being about nice chitchat and cups of tea?

1.) being ranty is considered unladylike so people don't like it. When men do it it as seen ans good and righteous or somesuch bullshit
2.) Social change can be helped by tea and nice biscuits, but I agree it's not all you need

squtternut buff will have said it better but basically some people come on these threads to say domestic violence isn't a "women's problem" and will insist we speak more about men's issues or pretend it is an equal problem. So they have thought that's what you were doing. It obviously does affect men, but as the problem is usually male violence it is always a feminist issue.

As for books you might like "Cinderella ate my daughter" it's feministy but also about how our children are affected by the current culture.

but I've been reading loads and my consciousness is being raised like a bastard.

Haha Amethyst basically said how I feel in one line.

Hi,

I lurk on FWR all the time (though most of my MN activity is mostly lurking, to be fair, I am not a prolific member). I have posted under a different name for various lighthearted things and a few not very serious AIBU threads, and in Relationships under this name, but I think I have only posted once or twice, and then it was a short contribution. I haven't really engaged with the discussions, though it is probably my second most read section after Relationships (I don't tend to bother with AIBU these days).

I absolutely consider myself to be a feminist and agree with the vast, vast majority of things the feminists of this board argue. I think people saying it's cliquey, too snobby and intellectual etc are being unfair, I don't get that impression at all. I have learned a lot from these boards - if I see something I don't know about I don't feel all stupid and like I am being excluded from a gang, I go and teach myself about it and read more if I am interested. For example, I had no idea what TERF meant until a couple of months ago, now I do.

I have also found that reading a lot here, even if I don't engage with other posters, has really helped me to cement and articulate the way I feel about feminist issues. Before I would get really offended by things, the non-feminist would be amused by this and only see it as ammunition to wind me up more, and I would end up just exploding with rage but feeling unable to channel it. Now I know a bit more about theory, different issues going on all over the world etc, I feel more confident in arguing my point. I am still inwardly at people who try to justify misogyny to me but I now feel a bit more equipped to handle it in a way that won't make me feel insane, and this board has been a big big contributor to me getting to this stage.

However, I do kind of get what people are saying about feeling that they are always jumped on for toeing the party line (even if I think it isn't usually true).

There was a thread a couple of days ago that mentioned X Factor dancers. I love dance with a massive passion (though only as a hobby, I am a thousand country miles away from a pro), and I have taken classes taught by quite a few dancers who have been on X Factor, in pop videos etc, so I have seen the way they work first hand. I wanted to put my thoughts across but I didn't feel like I could - I logged in, started typing, but then abandoned it because it felt futile. I was never going to convince the naysayers. Anyone that put a counter argument across was told they were wrong - the female dancers served no purpose other than decoration. One person they may have worked hard but there are thousands of dancers who probably worked hard and didn't get as far because they aren't attractive or rich like the ones that do make it - I thought this was really unfair - I've not known many dancers who come from an over-priviliged background, and it is a notoriously badly paid profession so they really have to be quite dedicated and determined to get to where they are. And yes they are attractive but a lot of it is costume and make-up - they are not otherworld beauties like a supermodel, and the fit body comes with the territory - they have good bodies because of the job, not the other way round. The clothes - yes some outfits are skimpy but so are some men's ones (I don't watch X Factor much, but on Strictly a lot of the male pros are topless for titillation - it's a bit of entertainment and fun, and it looks good). Dancers are supposed to be visually appealing, it's a performing art. Don't get me wrong, things like the Blurred Lines video are quite horrible, but not every single skimpy outfit has to be seen as objectification. Also (and I am sure there are many people who can pick this apart as a poor argument, but anyway), girlbands have male dancers who are topless, who they have on leashes in their videos etc...

I totally get that historically, it has been much worse for women, that culture is infested with misogyny and stuff, but sometimes I just want to enjoy watching a dancer, male or female, do their thing without feeling like a bad feminist because of it. And I think it's really unfair that if someone comes along and says "hang on, those dancers are really hard working professionals who have trained for decades and have immense skill", the response is "I don't care, they are essentially lowering them self to nothing more than a Christmas bauble and they are being exploited". So I do think some posters can be a bit dismissive of alternative points of view, and that can feel quite patronising.

I also don't feel too keen on posting because a lot of the goady people really wind me up and I think I would find it too upsetting to try and argue back with them. Though I admire those who do have the patience to do it.

This hasn't been the most coherent argument I have ever put together, maybe that bit I said earlier about being able to articulate my thoughts was wrong. I really like this board, but I can see why the people who don't enjoy it feel that way.

Sorry that was really long and I'm not great at explaining things

Ok, I'd like to know a bit on feminism and Breastfeeding.

I'm a peer supporter, and have to bite my tongue frequently when I hear women say they are Breastfeeding as they've been told they should be, by their partners. Or the opposite where it's all going well and they're being told they shouldn't be. As their sex life is suffering.

I guess I dislike all the responsibility landing on the mothers shoulders.

Can I join in?

I will start by saying that I'm totally new to this whole concept, I've never "felt" like I've been affected by misogyny and my family are very much the "get up and get on with it types" so its not something I've ever really thought about but reading through some of the threads around MN (I've been here 6 years) I started to realise that actually I have been subjected to behaviours that I wouldn't if I had been born with my reproductive organs on the outside and regardless how minor they may seem it shouldn't be happening in this era!

I have an 8 year old DS and a 20 month old daughter and I want both of them to grow up in a world where they can reach their full potential and be who/what/wherever they want to be so I feel that its my responsibility to teach them all that they should know about how to achieve this.

Can anyone help me out a bit as a complete newbie with any useful starting points, perhaps some books for myself to get a bit more clued up?

Finally may I ask a quick question? I have ventured over to this board once (i didn't realise it was in this section) on a conversation about Domestic Violence awareness, I posted about my male cousin who had been the victim of a catalogue of abuse by his female partner and added some links of male support sites that he found useful in the end but basically ripped to shreds for "harping on about the menz" and "not focussing on the real problem".

Now from my very limited knowledge of feminism i thought it was about equal rights women which would then corelate to people in general being treated with the same empathy, compassion and respect regardless of gender but it seemed like I had done something wrong by mentioning that men can be affected too, is this considered a misogynistic view?

I like that prettygirl, it reminds me of a life quote I also like "No pressure, no diamonds". Without a group of us applying pressure, there will be no change.

I'm also pretty sure Gillian Michaels says something similar in the 30DS but I'm breathing so heavily I cant hear her!

'But some people do have a bit of a tendency all over MN to think things are personally directed at them when it's really not personal.'

I forget who came up with PARD, but that's the sort of thing I enjoy. Polite doesn't have to mean obsequious, or passive aggressive or toning down the debates. To me it means attacking the argument rather than the poster, and backing up your points with evidence rather than anecdotes and dogma based on faith rather than facts.
There are a number of fantastic posters on FWR that do this extremely well, and Stewie was another past contributer who was worth the reading. She's one of the few feminists that I follow online still.
But for many in both camps, debate is a tricky beast that tips into defensiveness and an unwillingness to listen to the arguments, even if all you are doing is looking to refute them.