Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

Grimble - something I'm getting at is, do you think there's something inherently bad or wrong about a woman having photos of her own naked body?

Sorry Dueling I missed bit

"there is of course a wider issue to do with men being expected to do less RE childcare but I think focusing on breastfeeding means you are missing the point. Why pick on breastfeeding when there is so much more surrounding childcare that could be changed.
my pont being that parents are tied to their babies from the moment they are born, but for many reasons Men are mostly less tied to them and this goes beyond just the method of feeding.

Even bottle feeding mums feel more tied to their children than most men do."

I'm not picking on breastfeeding, a poster asked about it so I answered.

You say "for many reasons men are mostly less tied" to babies - I'd be interested to hear what those reasons are?

Dueling: "there is a feminist argument that pushing it and guilting mothers into it when they don't want to is another way to oppress women by tying them to their babies and ensuring that men get off scott free from the responsibility of feeding their newborn children."

hmmmm.... as a woman who has been breastfeeding for 4 years I find the idea that women are pushed and guilt-tripped a bit hard to agree with. Pointing out the fact that breast-milk is the healthiest and most convenient option for a baby is not pushing or guilt-tripping. The act of imparting this information doesn't force a woman to do anything she doesn't want to."

I agree that imparting the information does not equal pressure. However, MWs, at least in some trusts, are required to ask multiple times about how a baby will be fed, which is a form of pressure. It's a complicated issue, because I am all in favour of bfing, I think it's a marvellous thing, and I did it myself for two and half years. However, I think the support out there for bfing mothers, especially new mothers, is appalling, and given that's the case then the breastfeeding posters etc are just propaganda with nothing to back them up.

Grimble, I get what you're saying and I think we've clashed a bit on this point in other threads.

The way I see it, it's not about bad/good/right/wrong or criticism. Both women and men are human, they make mistakes. Women are not perfect beings who can never been called to account for their actions.

But, take the digital images thing. A woman has a body. She likes that body and enjoys having it photographed. So she allows a male partner to photograph her, she gets a kick out of it, all good. Then, later, that guy decides for whatever reason to plaster those photos all over the internet. Or, worse still, someone decides to hack into her computer and steal the photos and plaster them on the internet.

What should happen in this situation is people say "What a shit that guy is for stealing/breaking his ex partner's trust." Because that woman was perfectly entitled to take and have photos of anything belonging to her, including her body, it was the man who did wrong by exploiting them. Yet, the man gets very little criticism, instead we have people saying "she shouldn't have had the photos taken." To me, all that says is that 1) women aren't allowed to revel in their sexuality and have photos taken, they will be seen as silly and be made to feel ashamed for photographing their most prized possession - their body - why? What's wrong with a woman's body? 2) Why are women to blame for men's actions?

Penguins: "I would also be interested to know how many women were tuned in to feminism by parenthood. A combination of the sudden workplace experiences, the sudden divergence of my day to daylife and DH during mat leave, the gender stereotyping and realising the sexualisation of the society my Dd's would grow up in really opened my eyes."

Yup. I was always into feminism in a vague sort of way, then got into it more when I joined MN but since having DD, in particular (I also have an older DS) I have become passionate about it, partly because I see the inequalities in parenthood (and my own marriage has almost floundered on these rocks) and I worry so much about the world DD will face.

Squtter, I hope Buffy addressed your points? I agree with what she's saying BTW, and I was wondering what you think?

Maki and Amethyst, I would recommend Dworkin to you too. Download here.

Hiya Rufus.

'If women always seek to avoid confrontation, to always be "safe", we may never experience any revolutionary change, any transformation, individually or collectively.'

Well said prettygirl.

Hermit -do feel free to join in, I for one love hearing a new voice.

Down: "It's when the polemic is directed, or perceived to be directed at an individual rather than the system that many become defensive and aggressive in return. If women think they are being attacked and accused on a board, why would they continue to post there? Even if they were mistaken in how they felt and the ranty poster had no idea of how they were being received?"

This is an intractable problem in the discussion of feminism. If you say to a poster that her choice to shave, for example, has been informed by the society around her, you are stating a fact that has a lot of independent proof. Yet she, understandably, might feel you are calling her a sheep or implying that she has no mind of her own. This goes back to the whole separating the personal from the political while still understanding how they are intertwined. It's hard, and it takes time, and if a poster isn't up for that then that's ok. But feminists aren't going to change their views to make someone feel better. It gets frustrating constantly revisiting the same arguments over and over. Which is why I think this thread might be helpful - it can cover the ground that new posters need and hopefully help them feel confident in approaching other threads.

Gimme - breastfeeding is quite a controversial issue as far as feminism is concerned. There is no denying that bfing is best for baby in nutritional terms but there is a feminist argument that pushing it and guilting mothers into it when they don't want to is another way to oppress women by tying them to their babies and ensuring that men get off scott free from the responsibility of feeding their newborn children.

I'm conflicted about it. I bfed two children and found it a massive chore but I'm also glad I did it. I do agree that women shouldn't be pushed into it, and that partners essentially should have no say in the matter as it's not their body doing the work, but I am in favour at the same time of bfing being promoted and supported in a comprehensive and useful way. I emphasise the supported aspect because in my experience at the moment bfing is pushed on women without any real support being offered. As such, it is simply a stick to beat women with and so in terms of how bfing is handled by the NHS currently it is a massive feminist issue. Basically it's beyond fucking ridiculous to bang on on and on and on and on about bfing only to tell a struggling new mum that no help is available to her when she can't get bfing going. I had some horrendous NHS experiences around bfing when my DD was little (related to having a biopsy, I'll tell the full story if you're interested) and I complained. I got one good response and the rest was the usual defensive bullshit but I think it made some small difference.

Hi Crumple, hope to hear more from you :)

Unwitting: "I have a question. On "that thread" the problem of FWR being ranty kept coming up.

I am very cross about the fact that the world discriminates against me due to my lack of willy. Surely being ranty is a very sensible response? I don't recall any social change movement in history being about nice chitchat and cups of tea?

It feels like the accusations I get at work about being "too emotional" when actually I just give a shit and am passionate about something.

Do we have to be "nice"?"

Some others have addressed your question and I agree with what they say. Also, I think, when women first encounter feminism many feel a sense of vertigo, like the world they once knew and trusted is falling away. It can be incredibly scary to think that the people around you who professed to have your best interests at heart, even those who love you, could deep down see you as inferior and be colluding in certain ways to ensure your success and stability are so much harder to maintain than that of men. Challenging a person's world view, making them feel unsure of everything, definitely comes across as an attack and I can understand the defensiveness many women feel - the sense that it's all too much and can we just hide away from it a bit?

But, to answer your question, no, we don't have to be "nice."

Oops

Buffy please feel free to be on the "panel" :) Nice to see you flowers