Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

Brilliant thread!

I have agonised a lot about breastfeeding, from a feminist perspective. Not about doing it, which I did, and do not regret, but around the issues around it.

• of course it must be entirely up to the woman whose breasts they are

• but this means you are pushing the agenda that the mother is the main parent, and this goes against all the responsibility that you want the father to take, now and in the long term. In some tiny way it's as if saying "only I feed the baby" turns into "only I know what (s)he eats, how to get her to sleep, and in 12 years will be having arguments about homework and video games that you can't be arsed to have"

• as other posters have pointed out, it's not like there aren't a million other things that fathers could do. If you're living in a house that contains a baby and 2 adults, an adult who isn't pulling his weight because he can't feed the baby and seriously can't think of another thing to do, needs a kick up the arse

• and missing all these things points to the unfamiliarity of the situation to men, finding themselves in the supporting role, as if doing the side dishes at the barbecue. They haven't even seen the side dishes before. Making a huge thing of bf-ing - whether pro or anti - is about feeding the baby being the absolute sine qua non (seriously, the only thing you can't forget to do for your baby is feed it) and therefore men feeling this weirdness that the starring role isn't for them. Therefore they place huge emphasis on it (baby crying "must be hungry" Fuck OFF have you tried ANYTHING else she came off the breast THREE minutes ago!) - or even, the really stupid ones, resent it.

• At the same time! - it is incredibly tying and draining. It really changes your life beyond anything, to be physically tied for another human being 24 hours a day for 6 - 9 months to the extent that you can't be away for them for more than a couple of hours. It is actually slightly dementing... and the sleep deprivation.... and so although I actually think there is plenty of room in a family of a bf baby for the man to step up and be a father, I also think that a lot of this stepping up needs to be focused on the mother. Not only the neutral stuff - the house, the laundry, the meals - though that's all good. But actually on her. He owes her some energy that she is missing and will never get back. I say this now with great clarity, not because it happened to me, but becuase it didn't.

• and the bit I struggle with, from a feminist perspective, is that I feel torn between this sense of a mother's precious but exhausting bf-ing bond which should not be fucked with and almost translates to some sort of sanctity of motherhood (in the sense that the bf-ing mother should be looked after and protected beyond just a sort of esteemed colleague - she is more than that - she gives of her very flesh and bloody every day in a way you will never know or have to bear, while cheerfully pushing toddlers on swings at the same time); and the sense that the sanctity of motherhood is traditionally a patriarchal con, perpetrated to make drudgery in the house look good

Sorry that was so long. It's only part of what I have in my head!

can't see any easy answers to that one though

cailindana: it's always difficult to isolate an example when you want one: most of it is a general feeling that it's not the done thing to criticise a woman. But, for example, on all the views we had about the ghastly Ched Evans case I was waiting for someone to come and say what a total shit his girlfriend was and utterly condemn her. A woman in her twenties, so old enough to know what's what, who proceeded to undermine Evan's victim (no sisterly solidarity there then) through the website and by sticking with this knob etc. I wanted to say just that, but didn't because I could visualise the comments it might receive about "societal influences" that she would be under. A woman like that lets down all women.

What do I say?
There are women striving all over the world in situations that would break me, I've encountered attitudes towards women and girls in my job that have astounded me and that have helped me not despair of feminism in this country. Not perfect yet, but so much better than the majority of life for women in many other countries.
Hard to put it across on a board, but sometimes the most useful thing is to be supportive and let them know that their wishes are not stupid or unrealistic or wrong. That they are entitled to equality in their relationships and that it shouldn't be a fight, they should expect it.
Like me not putting up with sexist behaviour and attitudes in class with children.
To have those conversations with men, and push them to use logic in their reasoning rather than them saying 'it's just weird' 'unnatural' amnd the like
Living a feminist life according to my definition of it, and raising my own children with high expectations of their rights.
But then women that stay with arseholes, that put up with infantile lazy and bullying behaviour from a partner tend to sadden and confuse me, so I'm not much practical help I suppose. It's why I have the relationships board hidden.

Another lurker here

I think I felt more of a feminist when a student, and then I thought I had maintained that when I started working etc. However, like a previous poster, when I had my first DD and then my second DD, I realised that I had been overlooking or not properly considering the cumulative impact of low level sexism and how pervasive it is. Maybe my heightened awareness of it now has also come from the new factor of social media. I am so conscious of (and worried about) the additional stuff like FB / WhatsApp etc that my girls will have to deal with and navigate through, compared with my teenage years.

Our children will all have to have the strength and awareness to maintain their self worth and self esteem in the face of anonymous (or not), negative and sometimes malicious internet influences. Hmmm I really haven't expressed that well but hopefully you get the general gist.

This thread is brilliant thank you. I have downloaded a couple of the books recommended above. One book that I studied as part of my degree (many many moons ago...) was Eve Was Framed by Helena Kennedy, which was an eye opening read for my 19 year old self. I must re-read it, seeing as I bought it several months ago and it still sitting untouched in the bookcase!

cailindana: thanks for your response. I totally agree with your view that it is the man to blame on the revenge porn thingy and a woman is entitled to do what she wants over images. I was more worried that women(and men) are simply not aware that once these photos are digitised they lose control over them irrespective of her partner - and as a feminist I am shit hot on a woman's autonomy.

Anyway I am still interested in the views of regulars over whether feminists should ever feel they can criticise women. Doesn't seem to be a view on that so far…...

Oh, and no, I don't think that it's the only way, but back in the 60s and 70s it was a lot harder to engage with like-minded people and campaign in the way that we can now. So you acted within your sphere of influence, as students and later in the workplace.

Well, that's how many of us started years back, by asking why something was how it was and then challenging it as individuals, in our own lives and relationships. Not just with friends, but with family.
Simplistic and very small-scale, but cumulative.

Oops, that should have been 20, not 29 years.

thank you

sorry to go on but one of the more shocking things to happen to me since I became a parent was my own mother, who I thought was as feminist, telling me that maybe I was 'just being a bit too pc' when I complained about needing more help from DH with childcare etc. She advised me to just get on with it and that if having stuff done was going to make me happier then I should just do it myself.

I do understand that she was trying to help me get out of a situation where I was winding myself up over having so little help but I was really shocked that the only way out of the circular arguments me and my husband were having was to do it all myself - i.e just let him off the hook.

The sad thing is, in some respects I have done just that. We have been to counselling because we really wanted to improve our relationship for our own and our child's sake, but it has mean that I feel sometimes like I cannot moan about what I see as an ingrained unfairness RE housework and childcare lest I be accused of having a go.

Though to be fair he has started to pull his weight a bit and is no where near as awful as many of the men I see posted about on here.

I agree, more than 29 years ago, OH was a SAHP for our children even when they were babies. Much to many women's horror and the bemusement of many men.
Had he been a different sort of person, it might have caused him embarassment, isolation and loneliness, but he's very self-sufficient.

Because they are allowed to be, not just by society but by women themselves (though this isn't their fault IMO - it's the 'way things are').
or forced to be, even if they wanted to do things differently to the way that it's always been for the majority.

Because men who do childcare are looked down upon, even the childcare of their own children.
because stepping out of the stereotype takes courage and strength, and patience to deal with the patronising responses, suspicion and stupidity that is part of so many encounters. With women as well as men.

Because DR's appointments, present buying, party planning, meal making and so on are 'women's work'.
Not if you choose not to define them as such.

Hi I'm Righty and I lurk a lot on here but don't post because I am not very eloquent at the moment and lots of people express what I feel in a more measured manner, with better words and in a nicer tone than I think I can manage!

Haven't had time to RTFT yet but will jump in later when I can.

Thanks for starting this thread

Because it's acceptable to say things like 'oh he's a typical bloke' or to let men get away with 'just not seeing what needs to be done' or men get away with saying 'you just need to tell me and then I will do it'.

Why are so many men incapable of doing even the most basic childcare/house care stuff? The answer is - they aren't incapable at all they are just used to being allowed to get away with it and then accusing the women in their lives of nagging and going on if they ask for help.

Basically i think there are many women who subscribe to the 'if you want it done right then just do it yourself' because where kids are involved there's no time to fanny about trying to get 50% of the population to pull their weight.