Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

Oh yes, I agree, sorry I wasn't clear. I was just saying I could see why people get so fixated on how it's those women to blame for other's rapists getting away with it. It's not logical, it's a very emotional response.

CIS means you agree that you are the same gender as your biological sex.

Trans activist say anyone not trans is CIS.

SOme feminist agree with this statement but radical feminst think gender is a social construct and that gender is a load of shit and that women don't have women's brains. The only thing that makes us women is that we were born with vaginas and raised and socialized as women, so saying we "agree" with our gender is a bit rubbish. I don't see myself as having a female brain and don't think I am privileged either. I also don't think feminism oppresses trans people.

If I had posted that in FWR, I would worry that I would get flamed for assuming that all daughters have vulvas, and be accused of being cis-centric or something.

Oh god no. Not on MN. THe feminism seems to be a generally sensible sort so far.

I don't really get it either 5. TBH I stay away after a thread I started under a different name way back in the day about something not even related went amazingly off piste.

But part of it is about transactivists who seem to argue that feminists are being exclusionary about talking about things like, say, childbirth being a women's issue because, of course, those who are trans cannot give birth and therefore not all women can give birth. Or something like that. It all gets a bit Alice through the Looking Glass for me.

Don't understand.

Bella... I know there are women who lie... they make me more than cross, but, in the general scheme of things far fewer women lie than prevailing wisdom would have us all believe, iyswim?

Actually the whole cis centric and transgender debate is something I down understand. Tbh I don't know all the shorthand and I have been put off reading it as there is lots of anger. It seems to be dividing some feminist groups? There just seems a lot of discord and I don't know what about so if anyone wants to do an idiot's guide to the whole thing that would be great! :)

First Admitedly I haven't been on here long, but have seen far more accusations of being professionally offended that people actually getting offended for the sake of it. It's the same perception I've seen on other forums and on places like Twitter though, so it does seem to be a prevalent idea when it comes to feminism.

Zombie I actually did know a girl who lied about being raped (know she was lying because I was with the guy she accused all night) and I did spend a long time blaming girls like her for making life harder for those who've actually been raped. Hard not to really.

First - You really wouldn't. At least not on any of the threads I have seen. In fact, a lot of that terminology doesn't even get used all that often. I'm a regular on those boards and I'd have made exactly the same sort of comment.

I occasionally post on FWR threads. I am a feminist but it's not the thing I am most interested in talking about most of the time. Sometimes if a particular issue comes up in the news then I'll come on here to read what people are saying. The rest of the time I am being an everyday feminist on the rest of the board and in real life.

One thing that slightly puts me off posting in FWR is my concern that whatever I say, I'll be offending somebody. For example, a poster (not in FWR) started a thread asking for positive things about having a daughter. I made the comment that there are many positive things about my daughter, but none of them are specifically related to her having a vulva rather than a penis. If I had posted that in FWR, I would worry that I would get flamed for assuming that all daughters have vulvas, and be accused of being cis-centric or something.

The above example is probably not a good example, but I am trying to say that there is a perception of FWR that it contains some of the professionally offended, which might be scaring some posters away.

Grimble I agree on the Ched Evans little handmaiden point. Sorry, feminists but I do. I also have a real problem with women who promulgate rape myths or come along with the 'well, we all know so many women lie about having been raped' tripe. I understand why they say things like that, I get the psychology behind it, but it still makes me cross.

I think I answered the bit about the revenge porn on the thread.

Thanks cailin (and just realised I didn't read through my post very well and it's a bit incoherent!) I like your post on SAHMs.

Oh goodness, I have promoted myself to 'panel member' too haven't I? . I am not nearly so well read as many on here. Just trying to join in the discussion.

On make-up, I love make up. My random thoughts:

• I need to be aware that all of this grooming stuff takes up a lot of time that DH doesn't need to put in. I remember vividly when we were both working and occasionally had super early starts. DH could get out in about 20 minutes if he needed to. I needed at least 35. 15 minutes less sleep for me...

• I need to be aware that this grooming stuff takes money. Money I could be spending elsewhere if I wasn't engaging with it.

• I love make up. I love blending shadows and drawing eyeliner. The dramatic stuff is more fun anyway. More creative.

• Part of my feminist work on myself has been to be confident going out without make up. I want it to be a choice I make daily, not something I feel I have to do. I think if you wouldn't dare do the school run or pop to the shops without make up, it has probably become something more oppressive than fun. If you'd rather wear it because you like it, but if you ran out of time you'd be happy to go without, that's probably healthier. Don't you think?

Gimme- I said I would come back regarding feminism and breastfeeding. There isn't much I can add to Ros's amazing post. But there are a number of things which anger me at a feminist level.

In particular, the number of friends I have who have added a bedtime bottle 'so DH can get involved'. And I do understand it's hard with a cluster feeding boob monster who doesn't want to be held by anyone else. I do, we had two. But you know what, who nearly always buys the formula, keeps an eye on when they are running out, chooses the steriliser, sterilises the bottle, makes the bottle.... The man has the 'experience' and the woman does the work to enable it. Properly getting involved would mean all of it. And it also feeds into the point Ros made about men not being used to being the 'sides'.

Even more annoying is the friends I can think of who ff or mixed fed so their partners could help with the night feed. But whose 'help' faded to nothing within a month, leaving the mother with all the extra work.

It all seems to be about making it revolve around the dads, instead of properly mucking in.

Also, yes I totally agree with the comment about breastfeeding being promoted, but not supported, and that being a feminist issue. Totally agree. Similar to birth. So women feel that they have failed, when they have been failed.

I'm also a lurker/occasional poster. I enjoy reading the FWR board and have found myself questioning and challenging so much casual sexism in the workplace, with friends, family etc. I think this is partly through reading here but also because as a mother of two sons, I want them to be open minded. Fortunately their father is happy to say he's a feminist too.

Me too, wasabi. I lurk and read loads. I just don't often have time to post or anything to add. I have found though that I take things less personally the more I rread.

And Ros that post on breast feeding was amazing. I have nothing to add. You see this is why I lurk. I read and say "yep" and "damn right" to myself and then can't think of anything else to say. I'm often tired which doesn't help.

Apologies for really random typos....

Interesting thread! I've lurked for a good few months round here but always been too scared to post as I don't feel sufficiently informed. I've learned loads though. I've always been happy to state that I'm a feminist and why jo believe it's important to do so but lurking has really raised my awareness of the countless small ways that women are kept in their place and out of spheres of power and influence.

I challenge my nearest and dearest more than I ever did (and my arguments are so much better) but I feel frustrated about the lack of progress gene really. I have one daughter and two sons and for all of their sakes we need some change. Actually we need a lot of change.

Hi all.
I have been on MN for 8 years and my interest in the feminism board has recently grown.
I have always been a feminist, but my awareness of casual sexism and gender stereotyping has been crystallised since I began educating myself in the last few years.
I think I was probably happier before. I find it quite exhausting atm as I find myself recognising casual sexism in people I had previously considered to be 'like me'.

The only time I have felt dismissed on the FWR board is when discussing fashion, make up and eyebrow shaping
I love fashion and beauty products. I really don't think this is at odds with my feminist beliefs though it appears to be a problem for some.

I'm an occasional lurker on this board; I tend to lurk a lot more than post in general as I can only really write posts of any length in the evening, if I have the energy!

My mum was very much into feminism when I was growing up and I suppose I saw it as her thing, whereas I was much more interested in the environment. I've taken more of an interest after having my own children. If I don't post, it's usually because someone more articulate has usually already said what I might have said, or because I don't feel I lack the knowledge to make an informative contribution.

Yonic, I do think there's a reason she has to feel that what he did wasn't rape.

Victoria Coren Mitchell on Have I got News For you Said. .. "Even if she believes his story, even if she believes he found a key and let himself in to a drunk woman's room where someone else was having sex and then jumped in" how bad were her previous partners that she's that as OK.

Thought it was a really good point!

Thanks for thread and excellent SAHM post, Cailin.

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here - I would be surprised if Ched Evans's girlfriend has not, at some point, been penetrated by a man when she did not have capacity to consent (through drink etc). This does not excuse her actions towards the victim, however.

As OP promised no sarcasm or put downs I would really like to ask the regulars on here whether they understand what I am getting at and whether they ever feel that want to criticise something a woman has done, said etc. but hold back because of this "victim blaming" meme. And if so, is it helpful to hold back?

TO me Grimbletart the problem is that you're implying the woman has done something "wrong" by having a rude picture taken at all. And she hasn't. I'm not saying women can't be blamed for shit that they do, I absolutely think they can but I just don't see anything that doesn't hurt someone else as "wrong".

Ched Evan's girlfriend is a funny one. She's obviously the partner of a convicted rapist so we can safely assume her relationship is probably not a healthy one. You could maybe see her as you might see an abused woman who stays with a partner. Maybe not, maybe she's just fucking stupid. It's something I struggle with personally as I was badly abused by my father and so was my mother. By not leaving I got the crap kicked out of me. And I still blame her. I try not to, and I've discussed it here on FWR before but can't help my natural feeling

I think we all pretty much as a whole wanted to shake some sense in to Judy Finnegan though.

This is a case in point. You have someone who has met and been taught by several people who have been on X Factor as dancers, even people who are working on it this series, who have discussed the process of auditioning, being selected for and working on the show, and it seems a relatively unsexist process. Some of them are drop dead gorgeous, ... but you have just said "nope, it's sexist". I've seen your username before and consider you to be a reasonable poster who has opinions that I respect, and I don't take it personally, but I see how your response can be interpreted as dismissive and would put people off posting

As you've said you don't really watch the show,and the actual on screen portrayal of women is (to me) sexist, so I could just as easily say you are being dismissive of my personal view of sexism (I wouldn't because I expect we all have different ideas, but by your reasoning I could). I have to believe that the average poster on FWR is robust enough to accept people won't always agree with them.