Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

The trans thing is like the muslim thing. 0.01% of a group making all the noise and shouting extreme things, whereas the other 99.99% are lovely and just want to be allowed to get on with their life.

cailin I kow, I'm trying so hard to just give the facts without making judgements - hard to do when it makes me so damn angry.

Do leap in Front!

In my opinion, and as far as I can make out it's the same for others, sexuality is tied to biological sex primarily, so not necessarily a social construct.

Sexuality is a bit of a strange subject in the radfem/trans activist debate as well actually (at this rate, what isn't?)

Some trans activists think that as trans women are women with no question that lesbians who do not want to sleep with a pre-op TW are being transphobic. And that a TW's penis isn't like a man's penis, and is actually a "female penis" so shouldn't be an issue for lesbians.

The radfem stance is that lesbians are likely to be lesbians more because they do not want to have sex that involves a penis, so are totally within their rights to not date TW if they don't want to.

This debate doesn't seem to happen wrt gay men so far as I've seen.

Can I leap in and not be savaged for asking questions on gender, trans and sexuality.

If people believe gender is a social construct is my sexuality linked to just a physical manifestation then? Or a social construct?

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/19/mymilkcount-breastfeeding-mums-milk-isnt-good-enough

bella. although just clicked on the website of the company discussed and their account has been suspended!

I'm also another big time lurker, I joined mumsnet about 8 years ago, I go through phases of spending hours and hours on here to taking a break for a month or two.
I've been lurking in the FWR boards a lot in the last few months, and have learnt so much and I'm feeling that vertigo type feeling mentioned earlier and it can be overwhelming, especially with regards to my dad's attitude towards me and my life, he passed away suddenly a few years ago and sometimes I get pissed off as he's not here for me to challenge and also at myself for just accepting a lot of things.
My 9 yr old dd has been taking an interest too and it's been lovely having chats with her, I'm inspired by how confident she is in herself and the way she challenges the world around her, it might sound silly but I wish I could take just an ounce of her attitude and confidence and apply it to myself.
I am hoping to get some of the books mentioned next week but I was wondering if there are any good podcasts anyone could recommend? I have found a couple but more is always good.
I've only read the first half of the thread but wanted to comment before I went to bed, look forward to catching up tomorrow.

Wtf?! How could breast milk not be good enough?! Surely the only risks are if you are on certain drugs and you wouldn't need a test to know that!

But even then people try to tell women their bodies aren't good enough. Formula used to be marketed as 'better' because it was scientifically designed by men. Women still get told that their milk might not be 'good enough.'

Yes, and there are companies now that charge you to "test" your milk to make sure it's good enough it's fucking designed for babies. It's good enough.

Thank you, was hard to condense it!

Bella, nicely explained re trans etc.

I couldn't breastfeed, they tried me on drugs to stimulate milk production but nothing. With the first baby I felt so pressured by the HV to BF that I ended up telling her I was still BFing long after I'd moved to bottle feeding.

It was much better with the second baby luckily, but I still felt like I'd failed when I couldn't BF. Couldn't shake the experience and how it made me feel.

It is very hostile, there's a lot of talk of killing "TERFs" (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and terms like truscum (trans people who believe you need dysmorphia to be trans). Plenty of Doxxing and no-platforming. Not a pleasant area to wade into.

And I am well aware I've done exactly that. Worst I've got so far is an addition to the blockbot luckily.

Oh and 're bfeeding def a feminist issue, lots of pressure, bugger all help! And it us so divisive :( I think it's an issue that is taken so personally.

Fwiw three children solely bfed until three years and two who went onto formula after a fee months, one as I had post natal psychosis and I beat myself up for a long time over that and then the other I chose to switch because bfeeding just wasn't working and I had four other children to look after! Bottles didn't really work either... Undiagnosed lip tie I later discovered. If I ever have another I will try to bfeed and would love it to work but am not going to beat myself up over it.

And cailin, thanks for the SAHM post!

About to fall into bed, but need this to pop up in "threads im on" or ill forget it exists because im tired and tipsy right now

So yeah, hi! Ill be back tomorrow!

Wow! What a minefield. That all helps though thankyou.

I think I err on gender and gender stereotypes being a social construct. We have a biological sex ie what we are born with but even that is not clear cut and of course some people don't identify with their biological sex. And clearly gender identity is real I think but whether it's innate or a construct I have no idea but I see a lot of it as social construct rather than innate. I shall have to read some more but I don't think it's something I would enter into debate over as I said it seems very hostile.

Also re feminism being discriminatory re discussing childbirth etc well not all biological women can or even want to have children so... But ultimately they are feminist issues.

Late to the party on this one (different time zone), but a few half-baked thoughts on breastfeeding:

Women spend all our lives being told our bodies aren't good enough, while at the same time being told our body's value is primarily as a sex object. As much as I hate using the word, I did find it empowering to realise that my body had a real use. Breasts can sustain life!

But even then people try to tell women their bodies aren't good enough. Formula used to be marketed as 'better' because it was scientifically designed by men. Women still get told that their milk might not be 'good enough.'

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but its an important factor underlying these discussions.

FWIW, I couldn't have breastfed DD without DH's help. He came to a breastfeeding class with me. Then, in those crucial first few days, I didn't have the strength to lift DD myself. He was the one who positioned her, and propped her up with cushions, and checked the latch, and corrected it when needed.

5mad It is a huge and confusing argument tbh.

Mostly hinges on disagreements over what various words mean. Specifically, "woman", "gender", "cis" and "trans".

So far as I can see it goes;
Woman means either

• Anyone who identifies as a woman (trans activists and some feminists)
• Someone born with a uterus etc (radfems and some trans people)

Gender is either

• Something innate that can differ from the physical sex (trans activists and some feminists)
• A societal construct which is learnt from socialisation but otherwise not real (radfems and some trans people)

Trans means either

• An umbrella term for anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with their assigned gender (trans activists and some feminists)
• A term for those suffering body dysmorphia relating to their physical sex (some trans people, some radfems)
• A term that should only be used for those who've undergone, or are in the process of, sex reassignment surgery (some trans people, some radfems)

Cis is then a problem as it is meant to mean "opposite of trans", but as you can see from the last bit there's no agreed on definition to be in opposition to. So cis could mean anything from

• Someone not undergoing sex reassignment surgery to
• Someone not suffering body dysmorphia to
• Anyone whose innate gender matches their physical sex
• Anyone who is comfortable with their assigned gender to
• Anyone who doesn't identify as trans

And as radfems (and some trans people) don't believe in gender even existing they argue that they can't be cis if the definition is "someone who is comfortable with their assigned gender" or "whose innate gender matches their physical sex".

Cis is also used by some to say that those who are cis have privilege over those who are trans. And the counter argument is that being a "cis" woman is no privilege at all, especially in comparison to those who've lived the beginning of their lives with male privilege.

Um.. so much for trying to keep this simple..