Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

sorry - should read

given that I don't agree that as a woman every single aspect....

Cailin - reposting from another thread, with another question from the other thread tagged on, I hope that's ok.

Are we not supposed to answer on the thread in here? Honestly, I thought the deal on MN was that you were supposed to take it up with the poster, on the thread in question.

Doesn't that apply in here? If not, why not? And don't you think that should be a sticky if it is indeed the case - so that newbies to FWR, like me, don't make a mistake and behave in this part of MN like we do on all the other sections? If there's some sort of unwritten rule of FWR that I've broken, then I'm sorry, but I didn't know (because it is unwritten).

Also, given that I don't agree that every single aspect of my life is every single aspect of my life is constrained, criticised, belittled, devalued and threatened. I wonder if you would mind explaining?

Cailindana, sorry not been on to reply. Thanks for explaining your thoughts on breastfeeding, as I've found it a difficult topic to process.

As a bf peer supporter, I'd agree that the "support" is very hit and miss.

The centre I volunteer at is run by 2 experts, who are very strong, confident women. They often have to tell some mothers that bf is not the best for them or their babies as their circumstances are stacked against them.

My role as a supporter is more of a listening role. I can't believe how many women feel bullied into their feeding method. They are often told at pre natal classes the statistics for bf, have goals set up in their minds and then it all goes pear shaped for them.

My other concern is how many mums arrive at the drop in clinic full of despair and at the point of collapse. How has it come to this?

I'm only there as an unpaid volunteer, so I'm pretty vocal with what I consider feedback. Luckily it's all taken on board.

Marking place because this is a really interesting thread. But totally agree with the nhs breastfeeding 'support' which primarily seems to consult of printing posters. Cailin I had the same thing about babies crying - it would make me feel sick with fear.

Also worked with someone who was forbidden to drink alcohol throughout her pregnancies by her husband and he insisited she ebf their children as it would make them more intelligent. She was a bright, professional woman but I was shocked at her acceptance of his rules.

Just caught up on this thread, it's fascinating. I will definitely try some Dworkin once I've finished reading Delusions of Gender (possibly after a little break, because I suspect my increasingly frequent remarks about feminism may be scaring my DP a bit).

I'm not a mother, but the comments about breastfeeding and SAHMs are extremely enlightening.

Someone also posted upthread about spending time and money on clothes, make-up etc. I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. We were on holiday a couple of weeks ago and DP said something like, "Right then, shall we head out in 20 minutes?" and I was like, "20 minutes, are you crazy? You KNOW it takes me an hour to get ready." And it does. Not every day, but when I blowdry my hair, put on make-up etc, that's about how long it takes. Hours and hours of my life.

And money too - it would be interesting to know what percentage of their disposable income women spend on fashion and beauty stuff. Of course men do too - but I have the sense that it's only the men who are seriously high earners who'd consider buying designer stuff, whereas women save up for it, go into debt for it, etc. That must be hugely disadvantaging for us economically.

And yet because we're valued (and value ourselves) on the basis of looks first and foremost, it's not possible to opt out without disadvantaging oneself socially. So we're between a rock and a hard place.

As an aside I was walking through the village today and walked past a woman and two men

They were in front of a stand of religious leaflets...Mormon or Jehovah and I distinctly heard the woman say

"It's because they don't keep their wives in check"

When I started walking back my husband caught up with me and I had a mini rant and he said "well what were they talking about"

Well I hadn't heard the whole (loud) conversation but as I said to DH in what context would that sentence ever be right? (He couldn't think of any)

Possibly should have said something to them at the time but I was a bit gobsmacked

I had a spirited debate at uni about a feminist text which another student felt was too angry and unpleasant. I may have had a mini rant about how women are expected to play nicely and not be angry, and how we had a right to be angry and speak our truth.

Because by arguing our corner we are not conforming to how we are "supposed" to put up and shut up behave.

Ah yes, I especially like it when feminists are told they aren't arguing "nicely" enough, or are "too angry". It's all ways to stop us speaking out.

Thank you! Another lurker here.

The primer on trans, terfs, cis et al was very useful. The basis of the arguement appears to be based on "I am more female than you". It comes across as very tribal. I would say willy waving but, I am not sure that is appropriate.

Callin - your post on how society values parenting is fantastic. It is an inequality that needs highlighting, caring for children is an unselfish act - in any other field this is a quality that would be admired, yet a parent who makes the sacrifice and takes the financial risk is maligned and sidelined.

Just wandering in to add my support for this thread and a random thought.

I often find I can't articulate things well and whilst I know something feels off about how I'm or another woman is being treated I can't say it well enough to get past the "can't you take a joke" type comments. FWR is helping me put things into words far better.

Yes to the breast feeding comments. I feel utter bitterness from the treatment I received when struggling to feed DC1. I can't really express my feelings because they are so emotional and ranty. She is 22!!!!! It scarred me

That probably wasn't the best choice of words, what I was trying to get across is that while some trans activists think lesbians should be forced to have sex with someone with a penis (or be branded transphobic), the radfem position is that it is up to no one else to decide who has sex with who. No one should be demonised for their sexual preferences.

Absolutely, should point out, it's why I've deliberately said "trans activist" not just "trans" when referring to certain viewpoints.

so are totally within their rights to not date TW if they don't want to It's this stance that I find inexplicable (not yours Bella but he general argument).

It's like it's giving me ethical permission to have a sexual response (for or against)

I'd love to be able to control it because it's led me to make some sorry decisions in the past!!! But it is what it is?

From the little I know of trans and the couple of people I know, most do just want to get on with being themselves and living their lives. I would agree with the Islamic comparison - a few extremists making a big noise but not at all representative of the group they claim to represent.

Agreed EvilTiggyD, it's mad. I'm actually more concerned with how many non-trans people are giving in to them rather than pointing out that the majority of trans people aren't necessarily on their side. They shouldn't get to speak for so many.