Lurkers ahoy! Friendly thread to dip your toe in the murky seas of feminism

and now they are disputing facts about rape with me. "how do you know rape is under reported? And there are ways to prevent yourself from being raped." I don't want to say "I know it is under-reported because I have been attacked by 3 different males and have never reported it and know for a fact that I am not the only one. And the first time was when I was 8, how should I have prevented that?".

Maybe I need some new friends. Trouble is, nearly everyone I know is like this.

Yes Yonic, that is of course true. I am sure they would still say "well they are making a choice. I wouldn't make that choice". The reason why they don't need to make that choice does not factor in their thoughts.

Katee - and would those men be happy for themselves, their brothers and sons to work as prostitutes? Gay or straight, prostitutes are having sex with men they don't fancy after all.

Thank you Flora. Yes, unedifying sums it up quite well...

I read that Telegraph piece yesterday when I saw it on the other thread. The last few paragraphs really drove it home. I am sure if I said to the men I was talking to "If you think prostitution is such a free choice and no different from working in a factory, would be fine if it were legalised, would you be happy for your sister, mum or girlfriend to work as a prostitute?". Something tells me their answer would be more "Good heavens, no" rather than the yes that would be the logical conclusion to their arguments.

Thanks Katee

Rebecca Mott writes a very moving and often difficult to read blog about her experiences as a survivor of prostitution.

rebeccamott.net/

There are also good pieces on this Canadian site as they have recently adopted a similar model:

feministcurrent.com/category/prostitution-2/

This article about legal brothels in Germany shows that legalisation would not solve problems.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

Men justifying prostitution is very unedifying, isn't it?

Thanks Puffins, it's on the reading list

Rachel Moran's book Paid For is eye opening on the subject.

Hello Friendly Thread,

I have been reading the current thread about prostitution with interest. I was going to ask for some more info but it didn't quite sit right in the discussion so I thought I'd kindly ask here, where no question is too dumb. (Flora if you are reading, your posts on that thread particularly strike a cord with me).

So... I had a quite heated argument about this topic the other day with two people (men, natch) who argued that legalising prostitution would solve all the problems with it, as sex work is a choice and no more exploitative than working in a factory. I absolutely do not agree with this and kind of know why, but I couldn't articulate it at the time (it was late, I had had a couple of drinks and was tired, so I just got angry and left ). So, I wondered if anyone could point me to some introductory reading/research on this issue that would help me firm up my thoughts? There was one link to some research on how legalised prostitution increases trafficking, I will have a read of that when I have a spare hour or two.

I'm another lurker who finds herself nodding and agreeing, but doesn't often contribute (X-ray physics not often the topic in FWR!). I have found myself more aware of feminism since being the mother of a daughter.

Popping my head in to say I'm about a third of the way through Delusions of Gender . I want to catch up with the full thread later but Buffy for the recommendation, its a great read.

FrauHelga wrote - "given that I don't agree that as a woman every single aspect of my life is constrained, criticised, belittled, devalued and threatened"

I think most people can live lives where they have at least some freedom, respect, value, and safety from sexual violence etc.
But:
It seems to me that for each social group, whether it be Chinese-American millionaires or white, working class Scots, the boys and men of that group will have more of those things than girls and women of that group. I also think the boys and men have/are given/take/can expect more of those things because they are boys and men. Why? Should that continue?

Do you agree? Is "my feminism" anything like "your feminism?"

Another lurker popping their head in here. I always enjoy reading the conversations here and have learned a lot. Am going to start reading the Dworkin books, as well as delusions of gender.

Cotton ceiling is entitled language. I don't think it's an issue of awareness though. It's also consistent with the "don't label me but you can't object to being called 'cis'".

No, that's my thoughts too :(

Even if you are completely charitable and see it as just the "last barrier" that you aren't allowed to go through and don't see it something to 'break through'.. it's the idea that a woman is being offensive by ever not agreeing to fuck someone one she does not want to fuck.

I do think that a group like TA that spend so much time being aware of terminology and questioning it (which is not a bad thing in itself) would be aware of the issues with cloth ceiling and the references to "breaking through it" though.

When I say I'm not sure, I just can't/don't want to believe that anyone could think that it's a positive thing to refer to a woman's underwear as something to "break through"

I agree AsAMan, I've seen some wonderful people get death threats and campaigns against them speaking, even on unrelated subjects! So definitely not a small deal.

"They also use rapey fucking terms like cloth ceiling."

I haven't been entirely sure about this one, but that's their term for lesbians refusing to accept them as sexual partners isn't it? More than slightly messed up given that the glass ceiling is something we are meant to "break through", unless they are saying that the cloth part refers to something other than lesbian's underwear?

This debate doesn't seem to happen wrt gay men so far as I've seen.

No, and heterosexual men whose wives decide they are men are not supposed to say they are gay now. Only women are supposed to accept this.

While I agree with Tiggy that this is a very small amount of people (as he always reminds us). What he forgets to say is that this is a very vocal minority who actually get feminists no platformed and events cancelled. This very vocal minority also make violent threats. They also use rapey fucking terms like cloth ceiling.

I will continue to discuss it as long as events I want to go to are not giving out maps or addresses till the day before due to the threat of trans activists.

MRA and anti abortion activists are also a very small minority. Are we allowed to discuss them?

Not all women, no. But me, yes. I do defend and support women who don't have the same freedoms as me.

But I believe that for me, I have the same freedoms, rights and respect as men. Maybe I am extraordinary lucky, or maybe I'm not noticing where I am not.

In the past, certainly I didn't, but I took steps to get myself out of the situations that were unequal and now, I wouldn't tolerate not being equal.

And thanks for answering.

WRT to BF, well I BF 2 of mine and didn't BF one. In terms of who did most at the time it made no difference - my (now ex) husband still did bugger all of the day to day child care. Which was a husband problem, not a BF problem.