Sharing too much?

I've said what I think is wrong, Damsili. Your definition of misandry and using the word at all. And the bizarre remark about discouraging men from housework. So pretty much everything you've written on this thread.

Anyway I'm disengaging because this is Hopeibra's thread and she wants support. I think Buffy's post @ 14:06 describes how most of us feel and most of us can help you here Hopeibra. Your feelings of anger are quite normal. Read a few of the other threads on FWR and it may help process that anger.

If misogyny is a product of patriarchy, why is patriarchy it's own product in terms of the socialization of men - a process that you seem to exclude women from btw.

What there seems to be here is a muddling of patriarchy and the people subject to its effects. Those effects may be disproportionally harmful to women, but men are not patriarchy - they are its subjects every bit as much as women are. The system is maintained by a coalition of both sexes and practices used by both. wimp for example, would be a misandrous word. It is a word that ultimately will have a negative impact on women. This is why women should be interested.

Also, I go back to the sentiment of actually hating men. This clearly exists. You can't call the hatred of men 'patriarchy'.

dam you've highlighted the issue yourself in your proposed definitions:

"If misogyny can be said to be anything that reinforces the negative stereotypes of women and thus enable patriarchy , then this is what misandry must be: societal factors that reinforce negative characteristics in men."

I don't actually agree with your definitions but based on what you've said, is it misandry when a dad tells his son to "man up" and stop crying?

Yes Dam, it's called patriarchy. I did try and put that in my post, sorry I failed. Boys teach other boys how to be men. They tend to do it through violence, either verbal, emotional or physical. People sometimes do have negative emotions about men as a class, sadly, those people tend to be women, who have little power to do anything systematic about it. Men have patriarchy behind them, patriarchy is necessarily systematically misogynistic. Men as a class are not subjugated by women as a class, but some men can and are subjugated by patriarchy. None of this could be construed as misandry.

Are there aspects of what I've said above that you think are wrong Scallops? Your own interest or use of the word is really neither here not there.

But you might not get a baby girl.
What if it's a boy?

You can't go on hating all men.

Not much interested in MRAs and their "battle flags" either. Feminism isn't here to appease men. Nothing we say or do will make any difference to MRAs.

Or perhaps not using it at all.

"Or indeed useful for describing attitudes such as those that discourage men from doing their fair share of housework or childcare." What?? Men need encouragement to housework do they? Like women?

That makes it no less valid. Or indeed useful for describing attitudes such as those that discourage men from doing their fair share of housework or childcare.

Perhaps having a workable feminist definition of misandry would detract from it being an MRA battle flag.

No. People using the word misandry are elevating it to the same status as misogyny.

I think people worry that admitting misandry elevates it to being in a par and being that same as misogyny. This needn't be the case.

Patriarchy.

Yes, but there is a male equivalent that teaches men to be men. Why are men more violent, more sexually violent, more likely to be subject to violence, more likely to be kill themselves etc etc.

I very much doubt, Puffins that you'd say these were unavoidable hardwired elements. I assume, therefore that you agree they are part of the same systematic social conditioning.

Also, I doubt you'd agree that it's completely unknown for people, based on the actions of men as a class not to have a negative opinion of men as a class.

What word do you want to use?

Thank goodness Uri! I was about to hide all my spoons and clocks!

The problem is that there are some people who want to see feminism as man hating. It isn't, it hates patriarchy. Patriarchy is a system which oppresses women, purely because they are women. It hurts men too, because it seeks to strictly reinforce gender roles, so men who don't fall into those gender norms face ridicule and sometimes violence in order to make them comply.

Misogyny is the systematic hatred and subjugation of women by patriarchy. There is no male equivalent, therefore misandry doesn't exist as a thing. Hope that makes more sense.

Feminists don't, as a rule, hate men.

Thanks Zombie, you explained it really well. As a woman and the mother of 3 sons and a daughter I'm aware I have a delicate line to straddle to ensure all my children grow up confident and considerate. I would never presume to know everything, and if I've learned anything at all it is that the more I learn, the less I know.

I'm not really Uri Geller you know.

Of course misandry is a thing.

If misogyny can be said to be anything that reinforces the negative stereotypes of women and thus enable patriarchy, then this is what misandry must be: societal factors that reinforce negative characteristics in men. I think it's also perfectly valid to have a word that means someone has a negative overall view of men as a class. That exists - I mean it does, clearly. So it needs a name.

Allowing for misandry does not detract from the identification and challenging of misogyny. In fact it compliments it.

Bleah, there's an Ally Fogg thing there. I feel slightly soiled.

Misandry doesn't exist. Except in the fevered imaginations of MRAs. There is no systematic hatred of men going on, there is no country in the world where men as a class are oppressed. Misandry is to men what reverse racism is to white people, ie, bollocks.

NOT feeling too generous.

You know women haven't got a responsibility to educate you when you demand it right? but fuck it I'm feeling generous today too

Uri - Power dynamics, privilege, systematic oppression, response to oppression, the basic fact she doesn't go around abusing, raping and killing men etc etc

I'm in a generous mood today.

It would be better if you figured it out for yourself tbh. You will learn so much more that way, and it will have a much better impact. Good luck.

I'd prefer to be enlightened.

Yes, you are completely missing something, but its not the thing you think you are missing.