Is it OK to have a career rant here?

Badgers, the navy sounds better than the RAF then!

I am not commissioned btw, I'm a senior non-commissioned, so have worked up from the lowest rank to where I am now. My work doesn't include lots of meetings etc either, it's hands on engineering.

I joined up a year after they stopped sacking women for being pregnant, so as a bright young thing I saw very few examples of women in senior (non commissioned) ranks - the few that were had made the choice to have no children or were closet lesbians, so not married (it was still 'illegal' to be gay in the forces at that time).

I worked very hard and have done extremely well - but this has had more of an impact on me and my children than any of the men I work with, as (in general) they did not have a serving spouse and were not seen as a potential 'problem' solely based on the fact they had offspring.

The overt sexism died out over the late 90s in my experience, but the subtle stuff is still there. I am 'aggressive' where a man is 'assertive', I am 'nit picking' when a man 'has rigorous standards', I am 'nagging' when a man is 'tenacious' etc etc etc.

It has struck me recently that I know of no woman who has a serving spouse and children, who has been promoted past chief tech level in my trade. There are still no female WOs in my trade. One of our high flier women who I believed would be the first female WO engineer has recently elected for early release because she's had enough of fighting the system too (and she is single with no kids) - if she's had enough, what hope do the rest of us have.

I have spent the whole of my children's life with me and my husband flip-flopping deployments and duties, I really can't be arsed anymore.

There is the potential to do well regardless of sex, and the RAF is ' an equal opportunities employer' - but I really want to see the breakdown of women who serve over 22 years, and how many of them are mothers, and how many of them have serving spouses.
(A woman is proportionately more likely to have a serving spouse than a man in the forces, too - another thing that works against us).

The new changes regarding deployments increasing from 4 to 6 months is driving more women to leave post children, as it is not a rosy prospect when you realise that a you will go for 6 months, then your husband will go for 6 - leaving your children as a single parent family for a lot of their lives. Another underhanded way of discouraging mothers to remain in the forces imo.
In the 15 years I and my husband have been together, this last 12 months have been the first consecutive 12 that neither of us have had to go away for any length of time - and that's only because I have been downgraded with crohn's disease and have had a bowel resection (otherwise I would have been in Kandahar).

At this point I always want to ask why anyone cares about getting into senior management - full of tedious meetings and backstabbing and empty papers about strategy. The interesting work is usually done at the level below that, in my experience. (Though, having never reached senior management, I may be being unfair.)

But - obviously some people do want to scale the heights, and of course it is much better for organisations and the world as a whole if a large proportion of people at the top are women.

The problem is partly about socialised behaviour, isn't it. There is loads of research on how women get pigeonholed as weak or aggressive, and how hard it is for women to tread the very narrow path in between. There is a particular sort of male (often expensively educated) who has absorbed how to project confidence, even if they're not actually as able as the women (and non-alpha men) around. I would be really interested to see some research on the correlation between ability and success in the workplace... I suspect it's not very high.

Ebear of course in saying that I am talking about same people who have the same working patterns I do and on issues I know can fit within our working day.

This is not just a feminist issue but a human issue. The best companies I have worked for is where senior management realise that it is important for all employees, not just mothers or parents, to have a reasonable balance. I have also found the best male colleagues are those whose wives have equally senior roles at work and who have to share parental responsibiliies. The worst ones are those that have wives who do not work outside the home and therefore have no concept of needing to balance responsibilities.

While I do agree with you to a degree, green grow - and I like you very much as one of your posts years ago directly induced me to ask for, and get, a pay rise - it doesn't work like that always. Lots of men as well as women are getting stuck in my workplace too. The only ones being promoted are that particular brand of willy-waving bulls hitting man who takes credit for everyhing going and often has no clue what he's talking about. It is infuriating!

Advice to daughters? I suggest to all my children they pick work which will buy them the lifestyle they want i.e. pay (which if course might be ability to fund a hut only if they not consumeristic or a mansion if that's what they are after - their choices), secondly pick work you will enjoy and is intellectually challenging and thirdly pick work such that you could work for yourself and own the business. I have made most money as an owner, not a PAYE worker. It's fun to keep all the profits and generate them.

Both my daughters are also lawyers like I am and so far so good.

If we look at the relative on this thread who is a doctor and done well she was not off for long when she had babies. If you look at me - again not off long and in my day that was 2 weeks of annual leave although some took 3 months of maternity leave. When I was self employed with the last two no maternity rights anyway so I was taking business calls the next day (which of course is heaps easier than looking after 3 under 5s as any working or stay at home parent would tell you).

Lean in, work hard. Those who do well whether male or female do that - the 4am taxis to the air port, the 5.30am starts to catch a train to Manchester. Men don't like that. Women don't like that. Most won't do it but in plenty of jobs IF and it's a big if you want to make those efforts then it does pay off. Most people don't understandably want to do that and that's fine - all the more chance for women and men who are prepared to do it to get their own chances.

I would say if you work for yourself you get more power and control - be the owner, not the worker. I can set my own diary by and large. I can collect my children at odd times from school next week after some exams because I decide what I do on most days and I take a judgment call on what is more important on a particular day. There is no boss but I. I am God in that sense and it rocks.... be God.

Turnip's point about men in academia being so liberal that they are convinced that they can't possibly be sexist holds for health care too, I think.

I'm the grand old age of 47 and after 14 years of post qualification experience and having two children I have only in the past year made lead occupational therapist. I thought it was because I was a bit crap, but now I'm not so sure.

I've noticed that over the years I've gradually had more and more male students and since this is such a female dominated profession I thought this a good thing that men wanted to get in on the action and that my profession must be becoming more desirable and respected if they did. Then I started joking that the men would be leads within three years. Then I started being proved right. Infuriating.

Sorry - I meant to say - it is probably very female dominated profession which in some way is better for a woman (less sexism).

At this moment she is interested in studying psychology.
I actually told her - it is probably very female dominated profession.
She herself is a feminist but obviously with not much work experience at the moment (just done some volunteering).

Meant to answer antimatter,too.

I would say to your daughter to go for the career she wants. It won't be easy in all cases, but pretty much no where is sexism-free, so you might as well give what you want a shot.

What I would do then is look for employers with a comparatively good record on employing women - for example, if she becomes an engineer, some companies are quite active in supporting women, and others really, really aren't. You're not going to hear about the bad ones through company stuff (no company is going to admit to being antediluvian in their attitudes, and nearly all will say they believe in equal opportunities) - get networking! If there are industry associations, women's groups, whatever- join them. Go to events, hear what's going on, and that's where you're more likely to speak to people who really would encourage people to apply there, as well as those who won't. Caveat - this is roughly true of my industry; other professions may vary.

Unfortunately, I don't know if things will change massively by the time she's in work, but some employers really are better than others (though even in a good employer, you get bad departments) - and maybe once she's a bit more established things will have moved on more.

Good luck to her, with whatever she decides on.

In the little sphere of the work world I influence, I make sure there are no after hours meetings. If it is important, have it during the working day.

Whose working day? I work for a multinational, and I have meetings with people in the USA, India, Australia... It's okay if you're just dealing with 2 timezones, but I've been on calls with more, and it's going to be inconvenient for at least one person. We're actually quite lucky in Europe in that sense, as it's more likely to be in our working day than for the US or Asia. But not always.

In fact, although I am based in the UK, the majority of people I deal with on a daily basis are in other countries. That's pretty normal for some careers. Parents here seem to deal with it by doing things like refusing to have any calls between e.g. 17:00 and 19:00 local time, only accepting out of local hours calls on particular days of the week and so on. But you either need to be quite senior or be quite stubborn to do that.

I am very grateful for this thread.

My dd is 17 soon to choose her University course and then progress into her career. I know she would like to have kids in the future.

What would your advice to her (and all young women) be? How should she look at jobs, opportunities coming her way? I know taking all opportunities is the way forward but I also saw senior woman manager (she was in charge of the whole department) choosing men younger than me to be team leaders because she fancied them (she openly flirted with them at work) and that was disgusting!

I know if I can I will help my daughter in the future should she decide to have kids. My SIL was able to progress in her career because she is very smart and her parents helped her with her 2 kids whilst she was studying to be Medical Doctor and later on during her training. She never took time off for maternity leave as she had her 2 kids during Summer/Christmas holidays. She's done very well in her career over all. Her ceiling are build by men in board of Directors who never appointed any women to be one of them...

This thread is for me. I am reasonably senior but I can see that I am at the stalling stage. The workplace is designed for men by men. I only took 3 months of maternity leave so it is not as if I even left for a long time. My big issue is why in God's name are so many things held after hours? So even though I work full time, do a fair share of travelling, am still expected to devote significant time in the evenings to meetings which should form part of the working hours, which are of course arranged by men who do not have to worry about childcare.

In the little sphere of the work world I influence, I make sure there are no after hours meetings. If it is important, have it during the working day. These are the subtle things that mark women out as not being team players

Keep the rage coming. It's how we'll win.
I think what's insidious is the chance and sheer number of women who go part time and ease off. You look around and think 'why not?' Why not go part time, scale back, make it all easier and more manageable.
It's threads like this that make me stop and think no, fuck it, I can do this. But it's hard. The fact that the option to drop back is there for women, in a way it isn't for men is what drives so many to do it.
No man even thinks, 'maybe I could go part time' yet it's there screaming at me as an attractive idea every day.

I don't earn 10x his salary. And even if I did it wouldn't mean his work wasn't valuable, just as it wouldn't mean the work a woman does who earns much less than her partner, is lacking value. A lets face it, women's work, no matter what it is, is generally considered less valuable.

And who said I took a lot of time away from work? (mind you that hasn't stopped certain other men in my workplace). It really isn't a simple as that.

Indeed. I encourage women all the time. I go out of my way to ask them to speak at things or write articles for me and more men than women volunteer for that kind of thing sadly. I shall keep up my efforts to help other women.

I think you're minimizing, Greengrow. Most people commenting on here haven't taken long career breaks. What most PPs have noted is that they are struggling to get recognition for their abilities despite being just as capable, or more so, than the men they work with and they are seeing mediocre men being promoted and reaching career highs while perfectly able women flounder.

This matches my experience too. I am amazed at the progress some of my male network have made in their careers compared to my female peers. I won't deny that there is some element of choice as some women have taken career breaks or deliberately chosen 'mommy track' jobs but it's not the whole story. Often the element of 'choice' is illusory. Women are really just compromising while their husbands or male peers do not. It is very difficult for both partners in a marriage to pursue a full-on career at the same time, even without children.

There are just different standards for women and it is frustrating to hit full-force against this in your career when you get to the age, typically early-30s, when your opportunities should be expanding but instead they just diminish. I feel the same frustration as you ItsGotBellsOn when I look around me at peers.

If you earn 10x what your husband does as I did it tends not to be his work which is seen as very important.

If you take a lot of time away from work whether you are male or female as you are not there you tend not to do as well. We all know this and make our choices accordingly. The babies don't need you at home for long periods but you might want that as might their father. Choices those rich enough to manage on more than 6 weeks at 90% pay are lucky enough to have.

I've just found the glass ceiling too .

I've also found how much more difficult my career is with children and a husband who works shifts. Not only do I have to work around my work and my children I have to work around his working patterns too. Because of course, I am the one picking up the slack (although he did come home from work yesterday because youngest had hurt himself at nursery and they couldn't get hold of me!). I'm thinking more of late nights, residential courses when he's working nights or gets delayed at work (he works in the emergency services - its hard to argue against it). And even though I earn more (even part-time), I have still ended being the one compromising because of the nature of His. Very. Important. Work. and the lack of flexibility in his workplace. The fact that it is important work only seems to make it more frustrating.

But obviously it was my choice to have children. I should have thought about it before . The fact that men don't have to think about it or seem to have to make these choices makes it more insulting

I remember reading a thread ages ago from a bloke who was complaining his ex had taken a new job. That meant he had to change when he looked after his own child and it was compromising his work e.g. he couldn't go on a training course. So the fact that women have to do this every day because of childcare responsibilities and his ex had probably already been doing this completely passed him by.

Scarlett - that's really interesting. I'm in the Navy, currently in a command role, and I'd say that I see almost no willy-waving or sexism around senior management here. I was surprised by the amount of gender equality that I encountered, especially relative to the experience of my friends in other professions. There is a higher drop-out rate of women than men and fewer at senior level, but when we're only 10% of the workforce to start with, and we've only been allowed to compete for jobs on equal terms since the early 1990s, I'd say we were doing pretty well. The pull-through rate of women to sea command appointments has been exactly in line with the expected timescales from when we were allowed to go to sea. I find in many contexts that being a female can be advantageous - people tend to remember me and my voice sounds different around a conference table and therefore stands out, and I seem to get listened to. Sad to hear that it's so different rfom your experience in the RAF.

What a brilliant thread. I am so touched and inspired by all the incredibly expressive analysis on it from you all. to you all

I love the vocab this thread has given me to understand the things I was feeling

" 'I coulda been a contender' syndrome" - yes that's painful, really painful, good to name it

"being chased by a lion but everything will be OK as long as you're faster than at least one of your colleagues."

Brilliant expression for this dynamic. The more I think about the lion chase, the more it explains everything.
There are those whom they support, who support you back, who provide a mid-level pack that protects its colleagues; and there is value in tripping up an individual for the lion. Hmmmm how would that individual be chosen?

Tons of other good stuff on this thread.
I love you all

I feel the same, I'm academia too. I'm just so tired - two toddlers, a messy flat, full time work. And I have an easy job, 40 days leave (I take hem all) and massive flexibility, and a DH who genuinely does do 50%.

I've been seriosuly considering dropping out to do publishing from home but tunip's post has brought me up short. I've been thinking about it all night. And his morning on the bus I've started reading Playing Big - which I already am enjoying very much.

I think ill hang in a little bit longer

Ah, a subject close to my heart! I have despaired and despaired over my career, and I think I finally have a chance to get into the SMT ranks - its a shame that I know my mere glimmer of an opportunity is due to 2 men who have taken a professional shine to me. Regardless, I am grabbing that opportunity with both hands and mentoring the (nice) women along the way .

Gosh ItsGotsBellsOn! I had DC young and I have finally decided I need to up my anti at work to grow my career. All childcare is sorted and I need a role more mentally challenging. I am also very good at my job and I want to earn more money doing it. But bloody hell I thought parenthood was hard! I work for a recognisable brand and have overheard senior management conversation s where they are planning the workforce and have asked for single people only to be put forward. I am being made to jump through hoops for a promotion but seeing 'freer' people being given it. The frustrating thing is all the senior male management have several children and it hasn't affected their career. Thinking about it I only know 1 woman in senior management who has a DD. I could rant for ages about this as I am really feeling the glass ceiling at the moment!!!!

I work for a multi national financial services company in the city. My career is effectively over. There is a rumour that when I go back to work after my second mat leave, I'll be reporting to a guy who used to work for me I guess his career kept moving whilst I sat at home having babies.

It annoys me, too. I have to put up with incompetent male managers, and I know I could be doing a better job (goes back to argument with director about "good enough is good enough" - but what counts as "good enough"?) I'm better qualified, too. Fighting for a promotion (don't really care about the grade, but I want recognition for what I do do and as they've published matrices for technical competencies at different grades, I am using it to make a point,) oh, it's so tiring. And if another bloody male tells me hierarchy is important when it mostly is because it protects their position... oh dear god, I'll need to restrain myself from decking him. I'm more interested in who has the information or the skills I need, not their rank. If that means I need to speak to someone more senior, I will (half the time I have no idea what people's ranks are anyway.)

Sheelagh Whittaker said, "I believe that we will only have true equality when we have as many incompetent women in positions of power as incompetent men." To be honest, I'd rather have competent people of both sexes, but I see where she's coming from. Why are so many capable women losing out to incompetent men?