Now the term FGM is cissexist? WTAF?

norma I agree but I'd also say that oppression of women is rooted in their physical bodies and gender is socially imposed constructs that support patriarchy. Not sure if that's different to what you're saying, I think it's the same.

Seven these transactivists say lesbians are transphobic if they don't want to have sex with transwomen with a penis. Lesbians have been described as "vagina fetishists". Unsurprisingly the anger is directed at lesbians and not at straight men. There is a constant approach of aggression against women, death threats, DIAF etc but nothing against men (you know, who actually do assault and murder trans people). Prominent transactivists (including) someone who was recently an elected councillor, says feminists enable male violence against trans people to justify their focus on women rather than men. Of course all those violent men have read Sheila Jeffries.

I read the abortion link and apart from the points above there is also the point that they seem to think that by including all people in the issues around abortion they will have more chance of increasing access. I think they are entirely wrong.

The people who should have a say about what happens with abortions are the people who have them. I'd be happier if they wanted to reframe as it's an issue for people with the biological makeup that means they can get pregnant or something (although that's not very punchy is it!) But including everyone means all the men get equal billing in what women can do with their bodies and we'll never get anywhere.

The other point is that in countries where fgm is common there are a host of issues. Without research I am guessing that as well as women having a sit time, gay people, trans people would be at high risk. Don't they want to do something to help that, what are they doing?

And thinking about it, the whole concept of being gay is different according to their theory, a gay couple could consist of a trans man with a vagina and a cis man. Do they want to alter the idea around homosexuality as well, and what impact will this have for the ability of people fighting against gay people being executed in certain countries etc?

Part of me wants to go and read and find out more. The other part knows I'll sit there and yell at the ipad. Better listen to my smarter half.

Dear God.
I've just reached a whole new level of cross. Going out to walk the dog and tell the fields/trees/birds exactly what I think in spluttering incoherent sentences.
I'm becoming 'that woman who shouts in the woods'.

Line I think the trans aspect refers to the gender forcibly assigned at birth by doctors based "only" on an observation of genitals. They would say that if there was no gender assigned (ie sex observed) at birth they could identify themselves as female or male when they became aware of their identity. It's all such inconsistent nonsense that starts with the premise that masculine / feminine characteristics are real rather than social constructs that enforce patriarchy but physical sex is a social construct and irrelevant.

It is only possible to accept these theories if you ignore the lives and experiences of girls and women and the social expectations and restrictions imposed on them because of their sex and the use of gender roles to enforce female submission. If you say these things happen to girls and women because they are feminine not because they are female.

noble there are a lot of trans people who do not have surgery (the majority) and these theories are more often put forward by those who don't want surgery as it supports their "femaleness" while still having a penis.

If sex organs don't matter when it comes to gender identity, why do so many trams people seek surgery? It seems that they've not even managed to convince their own community of that argument.

These trans-activists are making themselves look like a bunch of irrational nutters . It appears their objective is to silence real women - how does that make them any different from sexist/misogynistic males?

It's like that scene from The Life of Brian. Ludicrous.

But if they've always been female, then there's nothing to 'trans'. So why do they use that word to describe themselves?

Thanks Flora.

So transwomen want pap smears for their non existent cervix and transmen want prostate exams?
Ok.
Yeah, this seems a bit over the top.

hows it's easy to be confused because it doesn't make any sense and contradicts very obvious material reality.

This sort of transactivist does not believe you choose a gender and that identity is not a choice. They believe that sex is a social construct as much as gender is and that bodies are neither male nor female. The only thing that determines gender is identity and sexual body parts are irrelevant. They believe that transwomen are and always have been female.

They believe abortion and Pap smears are not women's issues because men (transmen) need them too and that prostate health is not a man's issue because transwomen need them too. The use of women/female for these matters excludes transwomen (ie does not put transwomen's feelings and need for validation from women of their womanhood) at the centre of every issue.

This statement is just the logical extension of these principals which are actually widely held on many feminist sites. Challenging or criticising this view would get you banned on many feminist websites.

Words fail me.
Disgusted doesn't even cover how I feel about this.
What's next? Hiding/ignoring any thing which may 'exclude' anyone as they'll feel an ism?
I'm small and fat, I think the 'tall or slim elitists' need to wake up and realise my issues. (Heavy sarcasm)
Some issues, like the abuse of children for crying out loud, are 'bigger' than the pain of idiots who only care about themselves.

Good grief, how many more little GIRLS will it take before this evil abuse is recognised and wiped out.

No, I think you have it backwards (but I'm no expert!) - it's more about people who have a uterus but who don't identify as female, but have somehow had intercourse resulting in a pregnancy and then an abortion because they still have functional female reproductive organs. So this would be more the province of transgender males, I guess.

I am intrigued but confused.
This is all new to me.
I've never heard of cisgender before.

I understand that gender and sex are two different things. You can pick one but not the other. You can change how you look but obviously you can alter your genetic makeup.

So if I understand correctly there are those people who think abortion and Pap smears are for anyone who identifies as female regardless of whether they have a uterus or not?

Is that correct?

I also can't form a coherent argument right now but I can mark my place by saying WTAF????

I'm going to do some more reading on this matter.....

You know - I am very much of a "live and let live" mindset when it comes to trans-gender and intergender and every other sort of gender people - but they are really going to shoot themselves in the foot if they carry on this sort of pickiness in regards to problems that have been affecting women for centuries, if not millennia.

I can't think of a clever analogy, but it reminds me a little of new posters to MN who start threads saying "this is a very old fashioned looking site, why don't you all try xyz?" - they're new to the party but want to change it as soon as they arrive, iyswim. Except this "cissexism" thing is really attacking the wrong people, isn't it?

I don't know, I'm still not well enough versed in all this to form a proper coherent argument, but oh it feels SOOOO wrong.

Sorry I'm a biologist and as far as I'm concerned you have to be female to have an abortion.

What you mentally identify yourself as is medically irrelevant, unless you have altered anatomy due to an intersex condition.

That doesn't mean abortion is totally a women's issue. Every aborted foetus has a father, who may or may not care and may or may not by effected by the abortion too, but ultimately it is a female body carrying that child and it's that females ultimate choice weather to give birth.

I don't think we should rename it.

This is something that happens to little girls, pre pubescent girls, girls who live in countries where GRS is, I assume, almost impossible. These girls will remain girls, will grow into women, with mutilated genitals and painful and risky sex and childbirth in their future.

This mutilation will never happen to a child with a penis, even if that child later grows up considering themselves to be a woman.

I don't get it.

And I may be talking out of my arse but it's my arse and not someone else's political property to redefine.

Yes, Yonic. She wrote a brave blog and a bunch of people have destroyed her.

Pap smears are For people, not women. Presumably prostate exams are as well, but there seems to be a level of silence about that.

Noblegiraffe - in a nutshell. Sex organs don't have genders in the same way as hands or legs don't. Penises can be male or female despite not having genders vaginas similar. Your gender is whatever you say it is. Biological sex is essentialism. So, basing or aiming services at people who have XX or XY chromosomes is cissexist and problematic. And gender essentialist.

I have no dramas with people being who they want to be. Have GRS, don't have GRS, your call, but don't appropriate little girls' pain for a minority political campaign.

I am thinking that they don't see biological sex, or indeed age, as relevant to their gender identifications.

Trouble is, a hell if a lot more people than them do see it as relevant. It is medically relevant, and for me ontologically relevant, and I am entitled to that view.

I have no idea what's going on here. I get that gender is a societal construct and some people's gender identity doesn't agree with the sex of their genitalia. So they are saying that male/female only refers to someone's gender identity and what they choose to identify as.

So what are we supposed to use to identify a group of people by their sexual/reproductive organs? Do they also complain that smear test reminders are only sent out to those who tick the female check box?

Is the complaint that they don't want male/female to refer to sex at all?