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Original poster

Discussion with female friend re Ched

187 replies

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 10:53

So I posted an article on fb, with a link to an article on Ched Evans and the myth of male sexuality.

With it I wrote 'it's very simple. If she's drunk and you have sex with her, it's rape. That's the law'.

Several friends responded positively, saying such things as 'if in doubt assume the answer's no', 'it would be easier to move on if he at least acknowledged his act' etc

Then a female friend came on and, through various posts said I was being ridiculous as this meant that no-one could ever have a drink and have sex again.

After banging my head against the wall I realised you lovely folk would be able to help me construct a coherent response that doesn't rely on my usual, possibly unhelpful, sarcasm.

Help!

OP posts:
Missunreasonable · 26/10/2014 14:22

NDT : I understand the dictionary definition of drunk but I'm not sure that everybody fits the dictionary criteria. I'm thinking about myself when I have been drunk: I can be quite coherent, find my way home without any problems, appear quite normal and can consent to sex, however, the next day I know I must have been very drunk because my memories are sketchy and over the course of the day many embarrassing memories come back to haunt me.
Thankfully I don't get drunk very often and not at all within the last couple of years.
I know that there have been times where I have woken up and have the obvious physical signs that sexual intercourse has taken place but I have to try really hard to remember the details. Usually at some point in the afternoon I remember what happened and it usually involved dragging my husband to bed and being rather demanding. There is no doubt that I have fully consented and no doubt that I was drunk, but I still didn't fit the dictionary definition of drunk.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:18

NDT - I just googled it :S so I dunno about having to be a subscriber.

And given that the OP was pontificating about what the law was, I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to know what the actual law is.

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 14:16

smashboxmashbox - You need to be a subscriber to read that link.

Anyway, it's a bit unfair to expect the OP to have to use the precise legal meanings of terms in her FB statuses.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:14

" Do you think anyone on your friends list is a potential rapist? "

There's a fairly high chance there's someone on her list who thinks Ched isn't.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:08

I don't drink. Ever. So I really can't comment on drunk sex.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 14:03

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Original poster
HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 13:59

NDT - that definition of drunk is fantastically helpful.

I'm known as a wine lover, so definitely know that having a drink isn't the same. And made that point on FB. But it didn't appear to be acknowledged in her response.

As to the character of my friend? She does like a debate, and I don't always agree. Eg we have very different opinions on Israel/gaza but she has personal reasons for feeling that way. I just watch the news.

OP posts:
smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:57

Henrietta - you teach your sons to treat women as equals and not to stick their dick where it's not welcome.

It's not difficult.

Nojacketrequired · 26/10/2014 13:55

Could I admit my own denseness, and ask what the 'myth of male sexuality' is, as referred to in the OP?

Original poster
HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 13:54

Smash "I am obviously putting my point across in a way that's not clear".

It's frustrating, isn't it!

My reasons for posting were part of an attempt to redress the imbalance that exists in society, whereby when someone is raped they often end up feeling as though they are on trial; not the alleged rapist.

Clearly I've failed spectacularly. I do appear to have started a debate on fb as a result of the comment, where others are putting the point across that I failed to make. Luckily they understood what I was trying to say!

So if it makes others go away and do their own research and question their own stance on rape, and the responsibilities of both parties, that is some consolation.

As a mum of a little boy, with a second little boy on the way, lately my mind has been focused on the messages I want them to take with them in life, regarding how they treat women. Well, treat everyone really. I am feeling my way and make mistakes - and I'm sure this won't be my last. Apologies for that.

One of my favourite songs is Nina Simone, 'I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood'. It seems quite relevant today.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:50

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smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:50

Because legally there is a difference between being drunk and losing your inhibitions and being drunk and not having capacity to consent.

www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/comment/Voluntary-Intoxication-and-Consent-Cases-Rape

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 13:47

www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/drunk

"drunk (dr??k Pronunciation for drunk )

Definitions
adjective

  1. intoxicated with alcohol to the extent of losing control over normal physical and mental functions"

I'm not sure why people are talking about the word 'drunk' as if it means having had a single drink. If someone has drank enough alcohol that they no longer have control of their mental functions (as per the definition above) then I'm not sure in what sense it can be said that they still have the capacity to consent.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:43

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smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:41

Yonic - yes I have Confused

I am obviously putting my point across in a way which isn't clear.

Consent is key. Any penetrative sex without full and meaningful consent where both parties have legal capacity to consent is rape.

I would never ever mean to imply that it's not and if that's the impression I've given then I apologise.

But what the OP said was wrong. Factually incorrect. And not helpful.

heartisaspade · 26/10/2014 13:39

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smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:39

Not suggesting that Buffy - sorry - just saying that's why it is how it is.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:37

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YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 13:36

Smash box, have you read the We Believe You stuff?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:36

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smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 13:35

Buffy - because of a wee insignificant cornerstone of the justice system called innocent until proven guilty?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:33

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Original poster
HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 13:32

Buffy, I wish you could write my fb posts for me. You're so much better at expressing what I feel than I am.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 13:31

Also - OP knows her friend and we don't. How does her friend usually react to such things will be a factor.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 13:29

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