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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Discussion with female friend re Ched

187 replies

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 10:53

So I posted an article on fb, with a link to an article on Ched Evans and the myth of male sexuality.

With it I wrote 'it's very simple. If she's drunk and you have sex with her, it's rape. That's the law'.

Several friends responded positively, saying such things as 'if in doubt assume the answer's no', 'it would be easier to move on if he at least acknowledged his act' etc

Then a female friend came on and, through various posts said I was being ridiculous as this meant that no-one could ever have a drink and have sex again.

After banging my head against the wall I realised you lovely folk would be able to help me construct a coherent response that doesn't rely on my usual, possibly unhelpful, sarcasm.

Help!

OP posts:
Missunreasonable · 27/10/2014 06:57

No sashh of course I don't think it would be okay for my husband to do what you suggest above. Of course he wouldn't because he is a decent man who has a lot of respect for me.

I don't think your suggestion that a man who believes he has consent is a reasonable defence. There should be no belief; he either has consent or he doesn't. We can all believe things but that doesn't mean that those things are accurate. The issue of capacity overrides the 'belief of consent' but as it would seem in the Ched case the jury don't always agree with the legal aspects and can make up their own minds about what constitutes guilt.
No defence team could argue reasonably that a man believed he had consent to have sex with a 10 year old because a 10 year old isn't able to consent. The same should apply to a woman who is blind drunk as people who are blind drunk lack capacity. It is on that basis I believe both men were either guilty or both men were innocent, which is why I asked whether the man found not guilty had received consent prior to the woman becoming more drunk.

sashh · 27/10/2014 00:23

Missunreasonable

A defence in law is that if a man 'reasonably believes' he has consent then that is a defence. It doesn't mean he didn't rape, it means that he believed he wasn't.

She went back to a hotel room with one.

The other then conned a key out of the night porter, let himself in to the room and had his fun.

Can you really not see the difference?

If you and your partner/dh/bf have drunken sex then do you think it would be OK for one of his mates to come in to the room and leave you to it? Oh and bring another couple of mates to watch.

sashh · 27/10/2014 00:15

When a woman (or man) is so drunk they cannot consent then they are in exactly the same position as a child.

A child cannot consent to sex, an adult who cannot consent due to intoxication, being asleep, drugged etc is treated almost the same in law. The same for the ability to consent but a child rapist would probably get a longer jail term.

JustABitOfCollateralDamage · 26/10/2014 22:17

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YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 18:31

Puffins, i agree that may have been the reasoning.

Another possibility for the reasoning is that the jury did believe she was sober enough to consent but that CE did not give her the freedom to consent (or refuse) by his actions of coming into the room uninvited where she was already naked and vulnerable, being more drunk and less physically strong than the two sportsmen who both wanted Ched to penetrate her.

More likely to be the first though.

Missunreasonable · 26/10/2014 18:07

Zombie: you have said exactly what I was thinking and trying to say but you said it in a way that makes more sense than what I wrote.

ZombiePuffinsAreREAL · 26/10/2014 17:34

My personal opinion is that their is a perception in society that, if you go into a hotel room with a man who subsequently has sex with you/rapes you, you have tacitly given consent for that sex to happen. It's the thing with the legal term of what can reasonably be considered to be consent. What the jury basically said was that, because she went into that hotel room willingly, despite the fact that she was so drunk she had fallen over and left her bag in a kebab shop, a reasonable person would think she had consented to sex.

Ched Evans, the rapist, was text by the first man, turned the cab around, and went and raped her, because she didn't enter the hotel room with him, a reasonable person wouldn't consider that consensual.

I find the first man being acquitted problematic. If she couldn't consent due to incapacity to CE, how can she have been deemed to have capacity with the first one?

Missunreasonable · 26/10/2014 17:25

Having read that link I can't understand why only one of the men was found guilty. It seems to me that it should have been both (on the basis that she was not capable of consenting) or neither ( on the basis that she capable of consenting). I am struggling to distinguish the reasons why one can be guilty and not the other.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 16:24

The line is drawn on a case by case basis, by the jury, with the direction of the judge.

The chances are that cases where the line is very difficult to see (ie where the victim hasn't woken up alone, in a strange room, soaked ok urine with no memory) would never make it to court anyway.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 16:22

No, she consumed no further alcohol. Here's some info on the case.
www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

No, you couldn't recuse yourself from jury service for that reason.

Missunreasonable · 26/10/2014 15:53

But in that instance you wouldn't consider it rape so you wouldn't report it and it wouldn't be investigated.

No, you are correct, I wouldn't report it and therefore it wouldn't be investigated but would a woman who went on a date with a man who is not her husband / long term partner report it as rape in those circumstances? Could it be considered rape due to the lack of memory and would capacity be an issue? Where is the line drawn between being drunk enough to lack the capacity to consent and being drunk enough to still have control of ones own actions but be lacking memory the next day?
I think we can all agree that any woman who is too drunk to function properly (unable to stand without falling, unable to speak properly, unable to control bladder function etc) is too drunk to consent and having sex in those circumstances is rape but I think (perhaps wrongly) that there is a phase between being that drunk and just tipsy where memory is affected and people behave in ways that they wouldn't when totally sober and I am not sure how a jury can be certain. I wouldn't want to be on a jury in a case where consent is the issue and alcohol is involved because I would be too confused by my own interpretation of levels of drunkeness to be able to make a fully impartial judgement. If called for jury service would I be able to request not to be on a jury in a case like this due to not being able to make a fully non judgemental decision?

As for the ched evans case specifically: why did the first man who had sex with her that night not also get convicted? Did the woman consent prior to consuming additional alcohol and becoming more drunk?

SevenZarkSeven · 26/10/2014 15:45

Interesting.

I know what you meant OP - and for me personally coming from a fairly hard-drinking social scene - the word "drunk" is only applied when someone is properly off their face, unlikely to be able to stand without a a certain amount of difficulty, and well past the point of knowing what the fuck is going on.

Not particularly glamorous, but there you go.

I understand that "drunk" might mean different things to different people, but I don't understand why it would ever be construed as meaning a couple of glasses of wine or whatever (unless of course those 2 glasses of wine had for some reason resulted in the imbiber being totally off their tits and going way off message all over the shop).

Also, NDT definition is a point.

Drunk does not mean tipsy, or merry, or a bit sloshed, it means drunk.

So I think all OP needs to do is clarify "drunk to the point that she is incapable of giving informed consent" and job's a good 'un.

I am pleased OP that some of the other people posting on your FB have taken what you think sounds rape-apologist to task (and you're the one who knows the person / sees the posts so you are in the bext place to judge her intent).

HenriettaTurkey · 26/10/2014 15:26

Thanks, Beyond. Grin

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 15:21

Yy beyond, I was posting in a hurry, CE is a rapidly!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/10/2014 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 15:11

I should add that the OP made her statement in the context of the Ched Evans case where the victim was literally falling down drunk. You'd have to be really looking for an argument to interpret the OP as saying, "If she's had one glass of wine and you have sex with her, it's rape."

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 15:02

Oh and big yy to david's tipsy/few drinks and drunk/paralytic definitions.

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 15:01

Yonic
" Do you think anyone on your friends list is a potential rapist? "

"There's a fairly high chance there's someone on her list who thinks Ched isn't."

Well, technically he isnt a potential rapist is he, he's a tried and convicted, actual, factual rapist. Chedwyn The Rapist.

BeyondPreparedForHell · 26/10/2014 14:58

if it makes you feel any better hen, i have a friend on fb where (however eloquent i can be elsewhere), i just CANNOT get my point across to them :)

NotDavidTennant · 26/10/2014 14:58

This is partially a matter of semantics isn't it?

When you start to drink you gradually begin to lose your inhibitions. I would call this state 'tipsy'. Eventually if you keep drinking, you get to the state where not only are you disinhibited, but you no longer fully understand what's happening around you or the consequences of your own actions. I would call this state 'drunk'.

This separation into two states seems to agree with the thrust of the article, which is that disinhibition is not grounds for a rape to have occurred, but losing the capacity to consent is. If you're operating under the definition of 'drunk' that I'm using above then I would say that the OP's statements is factually correct.

However, I can see that some people seem to be using a definition of 'drunk' which includes what I would think of as just 'tipsy'. If that is your definition of 'drunk' then OP is incorrect and I can see why you'd object.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:56

"Although the Act was intended to produce statutory provisions relating to consent which would be clear and unambiguous, the Act is silent about the impact of excessive but voluntary alcohol consumption on the ability to give consent to intercourse, or indeed to consent generally."

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:52

"In the real world, the niceties of legal principle often give way to which of the protagonists gains the jury’s favour – a sobering thought"

Seems fair to me - that's the point of juries, and they can be guided by the judge.

I imagine, in the case cited, the fact that A was 14 came into it too...

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:49

(That was to Miss)

YonicScrewdriver · 26/10/2014 14:49

But in that instance you wouldn't consider it rape so you wouldn't report it and it wouldn't be investigated.

smashboxmashbox · 26/10/2014 14:41

This is the text of what I get when I click the article :

Voluntary Intoxication and Consent in Cases of Rape

Date: 23rd February 2013
Tahir Khan QC offers some sobering thoughts

Two recent, well-publicized Crown Court trials have caused lawyers to grapple once again with the thorny issue of whether a woman rendered severely intoxicated by excessive drink can still give consent to sexual intercourse.

The following scenario is a familiar one to most criminal practitioners and has been taken from a trial at Bradford Crown Court.

A and B, two 14-year-old English girls with a history of familial turmoil and social services involvement, roam the streets late at night looking to be picked up by men in cars and for the promise of free booze and cannabis.

X and Y pull up in a fancy car and the girls jump in and are driven around. They are plied with vodka and cannabis, which they happily consume.

When asked if they want to go to a hotel, the girls agree. A is so drunk and high on cannabis that she has little or no recollection of what happens after she walks into a bedroom with X. The following morning, A realizes, as she is sobering up, that she and X have had sex.

The same thing happens on subsequent meetings with the same two men. Each time, A gets herself so intoxicated that she does not recollect the sex and, when giving evidence at X’s trial, insists she did not want to have sex but, due to her intoxication, was incapable of resisting X’s advances. She never says she was raped.

The Crown case rests on the assertion that A was demonstrably “out of it” with drink, in support of the argument that she was incapable of consenting to sex. Reliance is placed on s.74 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which provides: “A person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.”

Although the Act was intended to produce statutory provisions relating to consent which would be clear and unambiguous, the Act is silent about the impact of excessive but voluntary alcohol consumption on the ability to give consent to intercourse, or indeed to consent generally.

It was only a matter of time before the Court of Appeal would be called upon to provide much-needed guidance as to the proper construction of s.74. R. v. Bree [2007]EWCA Crim 804 and subsequent cases have established these principles: if, through drink or for any other reason, A has temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sex, she is not consenting. If, in that event, intercourse takes place, that would be rape. The mere fact that A had consumed excessive amounts of alcohol and cannabis does not of itself justify a finding of incapacity and, if she remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.

Capacity to consent should not be confused with questions such as whether the alcohol made A less inhibited than she would have been if sober, nor whether she might afterwards have regretted what had happened and indeed wished that it had not. If A consented, her consent cannot be revoked ex post facto if she realizes that it was all a big mistake.

As the question of capacity to consent is a matter for the jury’s determination, accused men in the position of X will almost always find themselves at the mercy of their peers if they have had sex with a complainant who was very drunk at the time.

In the real world, the niceties of legal principle often give way to which of the protagonists gains the jury’s favour – a sobering thought

Author details
Tahir Khan QC is a senior criminal practitioner and a leading member of the criminal law team at West Yorkshire-based Broadway House Chambers, which has offices in both Leeds and Bradford. For more information, please visit www.broadwayhouse.co.uk, call 01274 722560 or e-mail [email protected]

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