Amal Alamuddin has changed her name professionally

my own choices are most definitely not made within a vacuum. i am as subject to the pressures of society and the expectations of those around me as anyone else. i make all sorts of decisions that work for me individually, but are not of benefit to women as a group, and that is why i avoid heaping yet more criticism on other women if i can. (and indeed i am criticised for this myself, in many ways legitimately). i choose to acknowledge that, and look at how i can either make more feminist choices in future, or work to improve the situation for all women such that that choice becomes something that is divorced from possible fear or the expectations of gender stereotyping

but it is entirely legitimate to question that at a society level, and to explore the impact on women as a group that these "individual choices" have

Of which i have repeated several times I agree with. It is your theory of true choice that i find intriguing. Perhaps enlighten me further on 'true liberation'.

no, you misunderstand

the point is, with true liberation it won't matter what individual women choose, because it will be a choice free of society's expectations and pressures. men and women will make truly free choices not based on gender stereotypes

i have already said, numerous times on this thread, that i'm not criticising individual women for their decisions. i assume they make the choice that makes sense for them at the time. but it is entirely legitimate to question that at a society level, and to explore the impact on women as a group that these "individual choices" have

I'm interested in how would you categorise situations where a woman is not making a true choice, for it is you defining it for other women. Perhaps even you have fallen victim to this to your own theory, thinking you are making 'true choices' but actually need liberating.

the idea is that through liberation will come true choice

And I am so fucking tired of this "feminism is about choice" bullshit. It's not. It's about liberation.

Liberation on your terms.

My argument is not so much about wether women changing their names upon marriage should be debated, I have emphasised this already that I see no problem with this. So defining choice is rather beside the point.There has also already been a thread on MN discussing this very subject, very analytically.

My point with this particular thread is that there is nothing analytical about the OP, it was opinionated and judgemental. Whilst i agree that not all choice is beneficial to women or humankind even, there are also many choices that do not have negative impact on others and this is one of them.

Just out of interest, what if she didn't change her name to Clooney but to something else instead, just because she felt like it? would that be a feminist issue as well?

Messy - this isn't a simple 'NAM!' response (I hope), just wanted to say that in my circle of friends everyone I know planning a marriage has discussed what they're going to name themselves afterwards, and it's a question that's asked of them prior to the marriage. There's certainly no longer unquestioned assumption that the wife will take the husband's name, which is a move in the right direction.

I offered to take my DW's name on marriage (for various reasons). She preferred I didn't but kept her own and switched to Ms. That was followed however with the usual confusion and ignorance from some family, work, schools, banks etc.

Also in addition to Chunderella's points about being a barrister and Lebanese, the couple married in Venice. Women in Italy very rarely take their husband's names on marriage.

fwiw i think Amal is british-lebanese, and her mother took her father's name from what i can tell

I took my husband's name, I wanted my children to have the same surname as their half sibling. I didnt want to be the only one in the family with the different name. I hate double-barrelled names, and it was just easier if I changed my name. I like my new surname, I had a difficult relationship with my mother, I look like her and I didnt want to end up with her name for life.

I couldnt give a shit if you think im stupid, I changed my name professionally as well. it made not a single bit of difference. having children marked my cards not changing my name.

If I had not married I may have changed my name in time anyway.

I know, and it's bollocks in regard to parenting too. "There's no right or wrong way to parent." Erm, yes there is, as clearly becomes apparent when we all slag off social services for failing to step in when they should have. And, of course, when we talk about the abusive parenting some of us suffered as children, which is often reason enough to cut off contact (I'm that situation myself, so not judging that in the least).

I kept my name to make a feminist statement.

And I am so fucking tired of this "feminism is about choice" bullshit. It's not. It's about liberation.

'What I can't understand is why we have this utter fetishisation of choice'

Yes Buffy, that's exactly what it is - fetishisation of choice. Brilliant. I've been trying to articulate why this constant refrain of 'choice' is so frustrating and so silencing and you've explained it much better than I could have. It's not just on feminism threads - you see it all the time on parenting threads - thou shalt not ever form an opinion about another person's 'parenting style' or 'choices' about how to parent. This makes no sense, especially on a discussion board!

"I like my husband, I'm glad we have the same name."

Why do men never say to themselves " I like my wife, I'm glad we have the same name."?

Because whilst we women are arguing and dividing ourselves over this issue men are sitting pretty in their privilege of never having to ask themselves whether they should keep or change their name. Because no one ever makes them feel that to show love for their wives they should take her name.

And all feminists are doing is asking: why is that? A perfectly legit thing to do IMO .

But actually I think the fact that it's not the norm for her background and career makes it look even worse. It looks as if she's not just getting his name, but his culture wholesale. Why should the traditions of his background be the ones to hold sway?

I think I can guess at the answer, if he does have political ambitions as surmised. We've seen several politicians' wives get shoehorned into using their husband's names publicly when they didn't before. But I admit I don't know her reasons.

Women can make a choice to do something, that they want to do, but that actually isn't in the best interests of women as a whole, and isn't feminist. That's how I see women changing their name on marriage.

I agree with Voyager here. I feel the same way with using Miss/Mrs.

I agree that's it's good to have the debate, and I have found this very interesting and enlightening. But the OP is all about judging this woman in her choice, and calling her, and those like her, names because of it. Which is shit, whatever your viewpoint on married names.

And none of us know what discussions she and George had, and for all we know they did discuss changing George's surname to hers, or going double barrelled, or both staying as they are. As has been pointed out, regardless of what the societal norms are in the UK, Amal isn't British, and it is not the norm in Lebanon to do this, nor in her profession. It would be very interesting to know her thinking on this, and his, but really, it's none of our business.

IF you know that FGM is an extreme example, then its a bit silly asking if I think that should be a woman's choice and we shouldn't question it.

No it isn't - I give the extreme example because it clearly demonstrates that the "feminism is about choice" argument is flawed - because when it comes to some choices, it totally falls down.

Women can make a choice to do something, that they want to do, but that actually isn't in the best interests of women as a whole, and isn't feminist. That's how I see women changing their name on marriage.

Like I said, I am not saying at all that women can't question why women in general change their names at marriage and the merits of that, but starting a thread with I am actually disappointed..... Successful women who change their names professionally always strike me as either stupid or coerced is not being analytical but very arrogant and judgemental.

The blindness that people have about name-changing can be astonishing. I heard about a woman not wanting to change her name on marriage and her FIL was outraged. She said to him something like "well would you expect your son to change his name to mine? Would you like to change your name?" FIL spluttered "Don't be ridiculous, I can't change my name, I've had it MY WHOLE LIFE!"

Sitting next to him was his wife who had changed her name on marrying him, presumably she up to that point had also had her name her whole life. So had his DIL. But that just... well, didn't matter as much. I wonder why.