Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

It'd not just a "discussion on a website" when women are sharing experiences of unwanted sex (is there a better name for that?!) that have caused them unhappiness and misery.

Ah I see

To some of us talking about these scenarios may be "just a discussion on a website"

To others of us, it is talking about things which have impacted on their lives and the lives of their friends and loved ones and thinking how can we even begin to tackle this when seemingly large swathes of the british public think it is A-OK to rape drunk women.

Different starting point, isn't it.

it's just a discussion on a website about the lived experiences of women and their bodily integrity

so not important at all

oh we had the PA smilies yesterday too

However politely you express your opinion, brighton, it is an opinion that is damaging to women. You have clearly joined MN to express this opinion - perhaps you're a die-hard Ched fan, I dunno.

Hi Annie,

I appreciate your defence yesterday, but I understand if you don't agree with what I've said today - although harmony is nice! I guess I don't see it terms on attack and defence though, it's just a discussion on a website.

• lol @ @ women getting a bit "hostile" when talking about rape.

It's such a shame isn't it, that lovely laydeez need to get so worked up about this, isn't it. So unfeminine.

If only they'd talk about it nicely maybe men would listen to them.

cailin, I have pm'ed you

Brighton, I defended you yesterday as I thought your detached stance was adding an interesting and important angle to the debate.

Today, however, your comments are nothing short of misogynistic victim-blaming.

Oooh nice PA smiley use

Think we are getting somewhere here laydeez.

Hi Cailin,

I understand this is something that makes you talk in a hostile way - but I am in every way entitled to my own opinions and I shall continue to express them, hopefully in a polite way :)

What caillin and petula said.

The onus is on men not to rape women - no man is expected to be a mind reader in order to avoid raping a woman, he just needs to ensure she wants sex. If she bats his hands away, or freezes, then he needs to think again. It's not that difficult for men unless they're a bit rapey in the first place

I'm backing cailin, seven and Petula

If your partner has not given enthusiastic consent to sex and you have sex with them anyway there is something VERY wrong with you.

Hi Cailin - thanks for the reply but my message was aimed at anyone who wants to read it, not just you, although it's ok that you don't want to engage with it.

fuck it

i'm with cailin and seven

men who don't want to rape women will understand

"as soon as his hands wander, she pushes them off. He continues and continues despite her protests that she's not really interested"

what part of that requires mindreading?

no one is going to be punished for respecting another's bodily integrity

What Cailin said

The onus is on both partner to make sure the other understands what they are feeling. I don't think it is all womens or all mens responsibility, but we are all adults!

It is equally emotionally abusive to expect a man to be punished for not reading his female partners mind.

The concept that women are in a constant state of consent until they say 'no.' The onus on women to fight off their rapist. The complete ignorance surrounding the nature of sexually abusive relationships - and how women are encouraged to blame themselves.

It's all wrong -- the onus should be on the man to ensure the woman is consenting. It's really not that difficult, is it?

Perhaps 'reasonable belief' is the issue as many men (and some women) have no idea what that looks like.

Some, like Judy Finnegan, might 'reasonably assume' that wearing revealing clothing is something of an invitiation to sex, so it isn't a great leap of utterly shite judgment to then reasonably assume consent is present.

What is reasonable in society is biased towards the male view of right and wrong, reasonable or unreasonable, so I think it is un an unhelpful way of looking at things. That bias influences men and women.

We need a clear way of looking at things that cannot be open to male biased interpretation.

The law clearly says that the man must reasonably believe the woman is consenting.

In my view, if he has bullied her, harassed her, or if she fears the consequences of a 'no', and therefore, grudgingly agrees to sex (or doesn't fight him off) - that is not reasonable belief in consent. That is bullying a woman into sex she doesn't want.

The 'enthusiastic' consent thing is just referring to 'ongoing participation' - and would include situations up to and including Buffy's scenario 1. The term 'enthusiastic' here doesn't mean she has to be whooping around the bedroom in ecstasy at the thought of sex - it just means she is having sex willingly, and is an equal participant.

Men know the difference.