How to be a feminist father ...

x-posts!

I think part of the problem is that you appear not to consider the vast amount of existing material on feminism worth your time. It's as if you are swatting away a huge library of books by and for feminists, going, "no, no, no, not that stuff, I need the stuff for men"

By the way I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt as making an effort, but "can you spell out for me...." is in itself a bit entitled.

The conversation so far, grossly simplified, reads a bit like this

A - recommend me some books on a subject I'm assuming you are experts in, and I'm not
B - yes, we are experts. Happy to help - try book x, y and z
A - no, not those books, there should be other, special books, for people like me
B - ahem. not sure about your tone.
A - well EXACTLY what is wrong with my tone? I need full details please, I want you to spend some time on this, talking about ME ME ME ME

At this point, person B might be justified in saying "ok chum. go and read the books x y and z and then come back for a detailed personal master class"

married Just because you're a white middle-class heterosexual male doesn't mean you'll never experience exclusion, bullying or people making negative judgements based on how they perceive you. Why do you feel your own life experiences of these things are less credible than anyone else's?

I am sure that you didn't mean to be patronising, which is why I said 'coming across' .

But you basically said "You know this big important thing which is a big part of how you see the world? Thank you for your careful book recommendations, but I don't think men will read about Issue unless it's a book about Issue for Men, not just Issue. [Bit patronising to men generally] And I personally would like a book which is a dummies guide to the one bit of Issue which I think is important, for men.

It's not that I don't rate the idea of accessible introductory texts. But you are saying that there needs to be an introductory text to one bit of the issue that interests you, directed at the one sub-group of the audience to which you happen to belong.

It's also the assumption that you can just learn about Feminist Fatherhood. Can you imagine wanting to learn about Socialist Fatherhood or Christian Fatherhood without first learning about Socialism, or Christianity. It implies you can learn the application without understanding the foundations.

That said, I think a book on applying feminist beliefs to various areas of life would be an interesting concept.

Sorry to go back a page, but I'm concerned about the use of possessive pronouns.
Do they always indicate possession?
How then should we refer to the children to which we have given birth or fathered, without saying "my children".
Or refer to the person we have married without calling them "my wife/husband"?
Is this peculiar to the English language? I don't think so.
Are there any languages you can refer to the spouse or partner without using possessive language?

Yes, absolutely. Having children is a great time for men to become interested in feminism.

It was the idea that you could have 'feminism for dads' as in 'all you need to know about feminism is how to apply it to your parenting' that I think doesn't work. I think that, to be a feminist father, you have to behave like a feminist. Which means you need to understand the basics of feminism. You can't be a feminist dad by following a few pointers in a book like "don't comment on appearance too often" (good though that pointer is). You have to understand the basics of why feminism is needed, what it means, what the everyday experiences of sexism are.

By all means a feminism for dummies with a chapter on dads. But I don't see you can think you can have a book that is just aimed at the bits of feminism you need for parenting. It isn't divisible like that.

I don't agree that a book for fathers on feminism would have to be an advanced text. Many men say their perspective on various aspects of life change after the birth of a baby. Old assumptions are challenged, new ways of looking at things discovered. It seems like a great opportunity to me.

Er, no, OP, I think you've gone fairly far wrong with that approach. And risk coming across entitled and patronising.

To be a feminist father, you have to be a feminist (or feminist ally, if you have issues with men identifying as feminists). It is a pre-requisite. You can't be a feminist father without being interested in feminism. A 'feminist fathers' book would be an advanced text, not a 'skip all the other stuff' one.

Imagine it a bit like Christianity (or another religion). You will have introductory books. You will then have books about applying your beliefs to specific areas of your life. But you have to understand the building blocks. Feminism obviously isn't a religion, but it is the closest analogy I can think of.

So no, I don't think 'feminist fathering for dummies' is really a gap in the market.

Married, you have identified a really important gap. And men are much more likely to be receptive to education when it is in relation to their daughters rather than to women in general.

Be careful with notions of "strong women". your OP says your wife is "able at setting you straight". I sniff a sense that you think you have a "strong woman", that she "can take care of herself" etc. there are (at least) two flaws with this sort of tropey fetishisation of the "strong woman" in a relationship / a household:

• she is likely not being nearly as assertive as she could be or should be, or you think she is, but by asserting herself at all, ever, and having this jokey reinforcement each time that she is "able to set you straight" you are making sure she doesn't do it too much. You're calling it out, perhaps making a joke of it, which is making it harder for her to do, and harder to be taken seriously when she does - while all the time pretending that you "love a strong woman". It's such an insidious dynamic

• it actually reinforces a very conservative notion of women as work horses who are solid, resilient, don't need TLC, and are always on standby to work harder. Men who talk approvingly about "strong women" often have a tendency to be lazy and selfish, knowing someone will pick up the slack

future lives? Unless she is a reincarnationist.

On that point, the role of dads is to set expectations of the males in her future lives, isn't it? Not to put up with crap treatment, and knowing that discrimination is really important.

Absolutely agree with tethersend. Give your daughter feedback on all her achievements and efforts. Keep the focus off appearance. Do not make comments on other women's appearance including weight. A father is of great importance in the formation of a woman's opinion of herself and her worth. Give her a solid base to enable her to know what is important.

And I also agree it's a very hard thing to do. Especially at the start, you need to be sooo mindful of whatnot and how you say it!!

I think there's a lot of promise shown in your wanting to be a "feminist father".

I definitely agree that gender equality should be in your mind when you are interacting with your son as well as with your daughter.

agree utterly with falafel - it's the very 'demonstration' of non-gendered roles and tasks that little ones will absorb, so I'm less concerned with uses of possessive pronouns etc. ( I call my dd "my girl" often fwiw). eg I like to bake, and her mother loathes the effort involved so dd does that with me, as well as other cooking efforts.
The role-modeling is essential isn't it? Role models are there as 'problem-solvers' so showing how problems can be met by both parents in a similar fashion is fairly crucial, imo and ime.
And yes to the 'praise' bit too. What we do as involved, loving dads isn't earth-shattering and the response I've given is "it's what one does, isn't it?" or some such, seems to be okay.
And of course gently commenting on sexist rubbish on tv/media stuff helps, I think, if it's done at a level that little ones can understand.

Married - something I've always tried to do (as a man) is 'live equality' as far as domestic stuff is concerned. That means there should be nothing gender-based about household chores / cooking / driving etc. Men doing certain things around the house should be routine, unremarkable and no more deserving of praise than when the woman does it. I've had, for example, my SIL praise routine stuff I've done simply because I'm a man - in front of my one of my DDs. Challenging that kind of thing is really tough, because it's praise and can look petty - but for me it's vital to do it there and then in as friendly but assertive a way as possible.

Living that way makes you (pl) a continual role model for both your DCs.

I liked your OP married, it showed promise

My partner is actually quite good with the things he says, but does occasionally fail the "assumption that I was the one who going to make dinner/remind him of outing/do the kid's shopping" portion of being a feminist husband/dad. If you're the main homemaker, it's probably not something you need worry about. I think a big one (especially for a dad of both sexes) is the way you speak to your son. Don't imply that anything feminine is crap, don't say throw like a girl, don't be weird if he wants glitter or pink. Girls pick up on it very quickly that being a girl is "less than". Make sure you don't spend all your time complimenting your daughter on her looks, don't call her passive names. Flower/princess. Tell how clever she is/ how strong, how awesome.