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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to be a feminist father ...

165 replies

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 04/10/2014 16:30

My girl is at primary school. I think I probably have no idea of the sort of inbuilt "patriarchy" stuff I do that might adversely affect her but I do read this forum and go to a few lectures to try to keep my self awareness up. Out of the blue accusations of being patronising (usually from my wife) are the tell tale that I'm not what I should be to my daughter (or my wife, but she's very able at setting me straight whereas my daughter might defer to my authority).

I want her to be happy and ready to take on the world and all the idiots she will meet.

Are there any tips you might give, books (not too long please Wink, I'm not a great reader) etc?

Perhaps you have a husband/partner that does stuff and you wish he didn't as it has some negative effect on your daughter. I'm not talking about clearly abusive behaviour as I am 100% sure that's not me. The more subtle stuff that most men won't be aware of. You experiences would help me.

Thanks in advance for guidance etc and sorry if I've turned up offering nothing but a begging bowl. At least other men might read this too and benefit?

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Ehhn · 08/10/2014 03:15

By the way, op, the fact that you are modelling staying at home while your wife Is the main breadwinner will have a positive impact itself.

My oh was brought up in that dynamic and, although his dad was not thoughtful or self-reflective as you are (in fact, was a hard-drinking Aussie who had a number of major character flaws), my oh has emerged naturally a feminist. For example, he didn't realise I was listening, but he heard some of his rugby mates belittling female sports commentators and he just pointed out the qualities of the ones he knew and identified their parity with male counterparts, without getting sucked in to rugby banter and without being defensive. He also supports me playing rugby and talks tactics and technique because it's a shared interest; he never patronises our playing strength. Likewise, whereas many men are intimidated by my PhD, he happily supports it and is proud, and comes to me for information on topics he knows are my areas of expertise.

So, in summary, your family dynamic will automatically have a positive impact on your dc. The fact that you are self aware and engaged will then serve to enhance this.

Ehhn · 08/10/2014 02:53

Dagee, while I agree with your post in part about respect, I think a healthier dynamic would be to teach both siblings the value and importance in not interrupting. However, I disagree with the second part about hitting. That is teaching victim blaming; I would argue that it is unhealthy for either gender to learn that.

dagee · 08/10/2014 02:07

Make sure your son never interrupts your daughter and never disrespects her. If she ever hits him you need to ask him to think about what he must have done for her to act that way.

dagee · 08/10/2014 02:02

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PenguinsIsSleepDeprived · 07/10/2014 21:35

Or eyelashes. Had a ridiculous conversation with my 5 year old recently where she thought only females had eyelashes. Had to march her over to her dad .Shock

falafelburger · 07/10/2014 21:32

Particularly if it's one of those books where a cat is depicted as female by having lipstick on.

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived · 07/10/2014 21:26

Dogs and cats are a good place to start with 'she'.Smile

falafelburger · 07/10/2014 21:16

Married – it's actually fun to try it, and to substitute 'her' for 'his' etc when you can.

The first time I remember doing that was at the toddler stage, singing:

Three little monkeys
Jumping on the bed
One fell off and bumped her head...

Socialise your own kids that way, small steps. A joy of being a parent.

WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 07/10/2014 21:05

Thanks Buffy - yes, a useful analogy Smile

YonicScrewdriver · 07/10/2014 21:04

Yep, it's socialised in from birth. Give it a go. I don't always remember myself but I guarantee using she even sometimes will still be different to most people your kids encounter.

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 20:59

felafal, the using "she" trick will be hard as the habit to default to "he" is baked in from birth. I'll try my best Smile

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falafelburger · 07/10/2014 20:54

Sorry - also - can I echo something Yonic said in the very first response to your OP ... always use she/her in contexts where gender isn't clear or defined – not only reading stories with your kids, but in every other aspect of your life.

You'll be amazed by how many people get confused by it, when they wouldn't even notice the use of he/him.

falafelburger · 07/10/2014 20:48

Do you believe men, in general, will read the books suggested?

Rather than worrying too much about that, start with yourself. You've been given some good recommendations, and you're here, participating and thinking about the right thing to do.

Go with the knowledge and motivation you've got for the time being; refine your approach to parenting/partnership through experience, asking others, listening and self-reflection – rather than worrying too much for now about how other men are going to follow you on the righteous path Wink

A lot of people are on Mumsnet for general parenting advice anyway, so if something crops up (e.g.. what do I do when my girls* put Timber on in the car during the school run? Challenge it every time, explaining the disgusting lyrics? Ban it? Suggest an alternative?) then ask about specifics.

And if you're feeling too privileged and want to simulate a little of what it might be like for some out-groups then identify and challenge sexism when you're with (only) male colleagues or friends. By doing so you'd achieve far more than giving them a copy of Feminism for Beginners ever would.

*I do use the phrase 'my girl/s'. Not often, but when they need the comfort and security of it I feel that the positive effects outweigh implied ownership etc, which I can address in other ways.

YonicScrewdriver · 07/10/2014 19:13

"It has a bit of a worrying subtext: that men only need bother about women's freedoms when they make a mini woman that they really, really care about."

This was the background for the might or might not be true Jay Z story:
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1210385

And an academic study re gender pay gap/birth of daughters to CEOs...

m.wsj.com/articles/BL-IMB-1908

BuffyBotRebooted · 07/10/2014 18:17

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BuffyBotRebooted · 07/10/2014 18:14

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MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 18:03

Buffy

To me your Dad sounds exceptional (and inspirational).

Totally selfishly again (me, me, me) I would read a book about your relationship with him and his story.

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WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 07/10/2014 18:02

I do think it's a bit of a 'reach' to suggest men don't engage with feminism because of a conscious acknowledgement that thy night have to give something up. This conveys a level of selfish complicity doesn't it?

WhyTheCagedBirdTweets · 07/10/2014 17:57

Buffy do you think it's fair to acknowledge that people may only take an interest in something when prompted to do so by something? Many men might be interested in being a decent human being without feeling the need to start reading feminist texts. From my point of view - outwith Married's approach here, it's perfectly reasonable that a man might only come to feminism once the responsibility of being a father to a woman happens.

This is perhaps why there seem to be so men opposed to feminism on this forum and elsewhere; it's not that the majority of men aren't on board generally, it's just that perhaps some men only really engage with it when they see an article that offends them personally for some reason (leaving aside whether they're right to be offended!) and those are the guys that engage.

Thinking aloud somewhat!

BuffyBotRebooted · 07/10/2014 17:55

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MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 17:53

Thanks Buffy and others. Not feeling very grown up but I'll change.

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MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 17:51

vezzie

I confess that this thread is about me.

I don't want to give the impression that I have dismissed the suggestions made. I haven't had a chance to read them yet (or even buy them).

I did want to challenge how men, outside this thread, would be drawn into feminism because I think they need to be drawn in. They don't experience it so only the very enlightened would bother ..... (oh god that sounds awful).

I think I should stop posting and think a bit more ..... Blush

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BuffyBotRebooted · 07/10/2014 17:48

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MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 17:45

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived

I will take being patronising to other men on the chin - guilty as charged. But I'm going to make the same mistake again and ask .....

Do you believe men, in general, will read the books suggested?

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BuffyBotRebooted · 07/10/2014 17:45

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