How to be a feminist father ...

I think it defies belief because you specifically asked for help, got help and then criticised that help.

No one here was trying to recommend something for "all men" but were responding to you as an individual man with a specific request.

Hope you will read some of the books linked - and maybe write your own!

I don't care whether you've been "transparent" or not Married. You are still expecting women to run around finding things out for you, explaining things to you. It's all very entitled.

Yonic explains nicely what I meant by Feminism is for women. How could it not be for women? My focus as a feminist is not to motivate and interest men, it is to make life better for women.

"How is that not targeted for you? In fact it is written for women ..."

Isn't that a contradiction illustrating my point?

Erm no, and if you had included the rest of the sentence it would explain why. The original intention of the book was to raise awareness amongst women but in fact, longer term it would probably be better read by men.

"I can see that "tailoring" feminism into a male-shaped consumer item is unpure,a shortcut, ironic and even offensive - but I think it would be more effective with a larger audience and will do a better job of accelerating the propagation of feminism more widely (at least until men get more enlighted and pick up Wifework unprompted .... perhaps by then it will be called Partnerwork?)"

Where to start?! Wtf is unpure? It has nothing to do with purity. Nor is it anything to do with being a shortcut . And it's not 'even offensive'. It is offensive. Petula hits the nail on the head "Men won't like feminism more if we're nice to them, we tried for a few thousand years hoping that men might notice that women are real people if we made them sandwiches and looked after their children and kept their houses."
And why would men not want to pick up a book called Wifework. Do they not care about the work their wives/partners do? I can't imagine the opposite being said. Women would be encouraged to see how hard men work. In fact that is what is done all the time anyway! There is a fair amount of misogyny in your assumption that men wouldn't be interested in a book detailing what women do.

And this is what I meant about you not being genuine. You aren't that interested in feminism above telling us how we should do feminism and how we should make it appeal to men. It isn't about you, it's about us. I know it's a hard concept to grasp in a world with men at it's centre an all, but go on, surely you can think about other people for a change?

Yonic I read all the way through the thread to find that you had already made my observation, that the OP has spotted a gap in the market which he can develop into a work from home career.

OP - I'm not sure I'm a very good feminist, but DH and I found The politics of housework was quite good at exposing some of our built-in assumptions. It's an article, so quite quick to read.

I think kudos to you that you are open to the idea that you have a lot to re-learn. Good luck.

Yes! Oh, thank goodness! If we'd only tailored feminism to appeal to men, then everything would be ok now.

Stupid feminists, making feminism about women and shit.

I get it, you want to understand, but sometimes that would be handy, if it also came with a Matrix-like learning module which by-passed all the old tropes.

Men won't like feminism more if we're nice to them, we tried for a few thousand years hoping that men might notice that women are real people if we made them sandwiches and looked after their children and kept their houses. Sadly, that boat sailed. Feminism isn't about choice, making nicer sammiches or anything other than female liberation from Patriarchy. Being an ally is a no brainer, unless you enjoy seeing women as lesser, and if you do, then, you're probably on the wrong part of the forum.

Harsh? Yes, probably. Apologies? None.

MarriedDad, these are the first two reviews of the Equality Illusion from Amazon. Tell me how this isn't applicable to men and fathers:

Review

'A dose of feminist commonsense.' --Guardian

'Banyard's focus on action is inspiring ... Read it. Share it. Give it to your mum, your daughter, your son, your brother, your sister, your dad. ' --Irish Times

(my emphasis)

I have a new idea! OP, why not be a feminist dad and then write about your own experiences and advice for men who follow you?

I think Sabrina is right, the recommendations are really quite accessible reading.

BTW, Wifework will never be called Partnerwork because if Wifework wasn't gendered, feminism would be ticking that one off and moving on.

I think this is the point - as a man, you really are used to having the whole world default to you. The whole world is male-centric. Feminism is a political movement that fights the "male-centricness" of the world that has oppressed women for so many centuries. But you now want to women to tailor feminism for men, so that men can get more motivated by it. It really does defy belief.

I recommended the Equality Illusion to you. It is an incredibly easy to read book - downloadable onto kindle for a couple of quid. It is not written "for women" - it is written for anyone who has an interest in the topic of equality for women. Which is what you claim to have - why not try reading it?

By feminism isn't for men, it's for women, I think scallops means that... Well, do you remember women's liberation? Feminism is about the liberating of women, the struggle to have women recognised as full human beings. Men can be allies and supporters in that struggle and may in some ways benefit from (and in other ways lose out) but feminism is not "for" men, men are not its focus, men are not the point, if you will.

As in dick literature, kinda like chick lit is chick literature.

I think what the OP is asking for is 'dick lit'.

If I wrote a post on a forum for black people that was discussing racism and asked how I could be less racist....and they gave me books that had been written that they found enlightening...would I then continue to harp on about how these books wern't written for white people especially? and demanding they make more of an effort to teach me to not to be racist?

If you want to be a male feminist the first thing you need to learn is that you take a back seat when discussing feminism and listen. In the rest of society people will listen to your voice over the woman next to you. You have been given lots of help here and many cookies for making the effort but to keep demanding when people say they are done giving makes you look entitled.

I think that there is an expectation in your posts OP that we have a responsibility to educate you each is basically just upholding the patriarchy.

Women took their time to think carefully and post on here for your benefit and you basically threw it back at them and said it wasn't good enough. It wasn't tailored for you. Let's take my suggestion, for example. Wifework is about how men leave the bulk of the unpaid, repetitive work and organising the home down to the women they live with. How is that not targeted for you? In fact it is written for women but it would be much more appropriate for men to read it as they are the ones doing the neglecting.

It is such a sense of entitlement that women should be providing you with reading material. In fact, more than that, feminists should be directing their time and energy towards producing books that pander to men and their egos. Feminism isn't for men. It's for women.

I don't believe you are genuine, not after dismissing those texts out of hand and demanding more from us. You just want us running around appeasing you, making you feel welcome. That isn't any evidence of a man who wants to be a feminist ally. It's just the sign of a man.

To learn and engage with feminism you need to listen to women and their experiences not have them tailor their experiences and thoughts to become attractive to you.

aronb, you have such a huge part to play. My DGF simply treated me as a functioning human being, with as much value and worth as any other functioning human being. He did lots of Grandfatherly things like gardening, DIY, mechanics and the like and was an impressively intelligent and talented man, he simply included us in this regardless of sex. Let the GDC help you with whatever you're doing, don;t assume that because they're girls, they won't want to dig over the veggie patch or because they're boys, they won't want to have a stir of the cake, let them take the lead.

As Penguins said, taking time to listen, taking time to have 'discoveries' and 'adventures' is so valuable. Life is quite fraught, having someone you trust as an oasis of calm and time taken helps immeasurably.

That is impressive Buffy - and the comments are really heartening.

Buffy - that is impressive!

How old are they aronb?

If they are youngish, and you are in good health, I always think one of the joys of being a grandparent should be being able to take them on the little adventures that parents are often too busy, or exhausted, to contemplate. The tree climbing in the woods, the trip to the local climbing wall, or whatever you have locally, running races in the park. Girls are soo soo often told 'be careful'. They aren't told to run wild and take risks. You can help with that.

Also, listen to her. Make time to just sit and let her talk about her day and her thoughts. A coffee out somewhere, a cup of tea in the kitchen. Whatever. Make space and don't fill the silence. Someone who listens like that is a valuable thing for any child to have, a step removed from a parent.

Don't spend all your time telling the girls they look lovely. It's a knee jerk. I do it with my girls. But try biting your tongue and complimenting something else. Tell her she looks ready for adventures, or that she looks happy today, or that you've hear she did well in her last school project.

Oh, and just being there for things: school drop off, sports day, going to the odd school event. They send messages that these things aren't the land of women.

Delurking. I'm (or I try to be) a feminist grandfather. Started looking at MN fairly recently, DD now herself a mother told me about it.

As part of the delurk, I want to say thanks to all the posters here from whom I've learned much. As I say, I'm still trying; in many ways, some of which I recognise, I'm still a fairly stereotypical old man, with all that entails in our society. (Though I started trying to be feminist as a very young man, encouraged by my mother, somewhat ahead of her time in some ways -- but see below about re-fighting old battles.)

Any specific advice? One of the unalloyed delights of my old age is that I get to spend time looking after DGC, girls and boys, regularly on one-to-one basis. How best to do my bit with them wrt gender equality?

And finally, an old quote from a feminist man:
"... the principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes ... is wrong itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; ... it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other."

-- Many of you will recognise it. John Stuart Mill. In 1869! Why is this battle still being fought? Why does every generation have to re-fight the same battles?

dagee = MRA and a previously banned user.

Such a fascination you have with mumsnet, eh, dagee? It must be like that itch you just have to keep scratching.

Dagee, you're way out of line. OP is obviously genuine and open to learning about feminism, so really that kind of aggression doesn't help things does it?