Fallon Fox - Is This Legalised Hate Crime?

Yes, I have heard of the kinds of people who are now calling themselves otherkin. I've even worked with one. Every single piece of training I've ever had has told me not to collude with people's delusions. So I won't. Because it is harmful to them in the long run.

Everything is massively transphobic except the complete and unquestioning capitulation to every whim expressed by a trans person.

BTW I should warn you that comparing trans to otherkin is regarded as massively transphobic so you should probably not use the "if I say I'm a cat..." example online, ever.

So if I decided that I felt like a cat, for example, ate whiskas and stuck on a tail I could expect everyone to acknowledge I am a cat, regardless of the actual reality of the situation?

Have you never heard of otherkin?

As we're coming to believe that actually there is no such thing as a male or female brain, where will that leave trans people?

The same place it leaves women: traumatised by being brutally, forcefully shoehorned into bullshit harmful gender roles that are wholly arbitrary and unrelated to sex.

We are coming to believe that weasel but then I think we always have, I'm not sure that the rest of the world generally is though

And TBH I don't really mind what trans people get up to as long as they don't muck up the rights of women born women in order to do it. And TBF most trans people aren't interested in fucking women over either it just seems to be this hateful violent minority who are making such a lot of noise.

As we're coming to believe that actually there is no such thing as a male or female brain, where will that leave trans people?

Precisely MoreCrack. As I said earlier, I could call my dog an elephant. It wouldn't make it one even if said dog had a delusion he was an elephant.

But, you don't have to threaten violence to be transphobic, only to refuse to acknowledge their perceived reality when it is in conflict with your own.

So if I decided that I felt like a cat, for example, ate whiskas and stuck on a tail I could expect everyone to acknowledge I am a cat, regardless of the actual reality of the situation?

succinct, weasel. I like it.

Because penis.

Agreed Weasel. If two perceived realities are in conflict why shouldn't my one win out? - Seeing as how winning out seems to be necessary.

Oh, because hierarchy, because domination of discourse, because sex. Patriarchy.

I agree Weasel, I find that statement very offensive. Their "perceived reality" is not in conflict with "my own" but with actual reality. Do we also have to acknowledge that a 6 stone anorexic is fat?

But, you don't have to threaten violence to be transphobic, only to refuse to acknowledge their perceived reality when it is in conflict with your own.

I'm sorry I find this really offensive. Because they are 100% refusing to accept my perceived reality (as someone who has actually been a woman since the day she was born) and no one is saying they are "woman phobic" (misogynist).

"Either way, to use your superior strength, no matter how it was gained, to inflict brutal and unnecessary injury on another person to make a political point, even within the framework of a violent sport, is well, unsporting, and makes you a shit person no matter which gender you choose to wear."

This.

Lol - thinking about it, obviously I think my opinion is the right one - but I am open to good arguments to the contrary (and historically have totally changed my opinion upon new evidence)

Oh absolutely - and I have no good solutions to the tricky bits of the problem at all (or, TBH, a great deal of interest in most sports).

However at the extremes I do think that opinions are clearer, and I think that both Fallon, and the Indian runner are both bad calls on the part of the governing bodies.

ChunkyPickle - well, I'd go further and say that the genitals you're born with determine your sex for absolutely everything, but that sex shouldn't matter in terms of the clothes you choose to wear, the job you choose to do or the people you like to sleep with and whether your outward appearance tends more towards the "masculine" or "feminine" end of the spectrum. But we both know that it's not as simple as that and that a great many people disagree. And I'm not arrogant enough to think that my opinion matters more on the subject that theirs. (you understand I'm sure that I'm not saying that you are arrogant or believe your opinion is the right one either)

Annie - isn't it just as valid to say in that case whichever genitals you were born with determines your sex for sport? AIS women are women because they were born with female genitals and socialised as women, vs. transwomen who generally even went through puberty as male?

Just as fair - perhaps even fairer because it's a lottery not an adult choice?

It's the logic of the thing isn't it.

It's all fucked up.

In practice it means that you can sit there with a woman BF a newborn that she carried in her womb and tell her that based on one measurement of one hormone she's not female.

Everyone in the entire world knows the difference between male and female it's the most fundamental identifier there is, mammals, reptiles, even plants have male and female - the people who like to drown female babies in buckets or marry them off when they are 7 know damn well what the difference is between male and female.

I can only hope that this is a stage where trans people + everyone else are trying to get to grips with rights / balance / etc and the whole situation will right itself. As some of the things happening at the moment are clearly preposterous.

I don't think there is any question that the Indian woman who has been banned has any kind of intersex / or other condition. AFAI can see her sex is female no question but for whatever reason she has higher than usual levels of testosterone. That is enough to get her deemed "not female" and banned.

Meanwhile someone who has the bone structure etc etc of a sportsman who has trained hard all his life can get his testosterone down to a certain level then he is fine to compete in women's competitions.

It's all cock-eyed isn't it.

So what we end up with it:

Male sporting competitions competed in by men born and raised men
Women's sporting competitions competed in by trans-women

Sport for women born women (+ transmen presumably) = cancelled.

Nice work.

These examples being highlighted though do shine a light on how a gender binary in sport is as inherently flawed as it is anywhere else - Fox used to be a man, but has undergone hormonal treatment which would render her a woman by testosterone testing. OTOH she still has superior strength over other women. A woman with PCOS may have "male" testosterone levels but be a woman in every other way measurable. And a women with AIS, well, is technically a man by genetics and the possession of testes, even if undescended. So since a woman with AIS has the same biological sex as a transwoman, surely it's a case of allow both or ban both in women's sports?

Either way, to use your superior strength, no matter how it was gained, to inflict brutal and unnecessary injury on another person to make a political point, even within the framework of a violent sport, is well, unsporting, and makes you a shit person no matter which gender you choose to wear.

Flabber, you said "I also think the PP who said a male to female sex change doesn't make you a female is wrong."

I wonder at what point in the process of transition you believe a male becomes a female? Breast implants? Artificial hormones? Penis removal?
Because as the law currently stands you can have a penis, no breasts and no female hormones, and as long as you dress as a woman and tell others you're a woman, as far as the law is concerned you are one.
It's absurd.