Minor male entitlements

Agree with the travelling thing. A young guy I know has just come back from spending a year's surfing around the USA. I asked him how he afforded it and he said he hitched everywhere, slept in cheap hostels and, when he couldn't find a hostel, he camped out on the beach or slept in the houses of other surfers he'd just befriended. I love the idea of travelling cheaply and simply like this but it just seems too dangerous for a female. I know we are told that men are more often the victims of violence but I suspect a large part of that is down to the fact that inculcated caution circumscribes our lives.

I feel compelled to post this and I apologise for doing so.

I am a man and I lurk in threads like this for ideas about stuff I might be doing without thinking about it. Over the years I have changed some but not enough so I still lurk.

I am only posting this to say two things... a)men reading these threads don't just get defensive and b)thank you

School communication - always with me.
Why? Why can't the menz read the long newsletters/ attend the long meetings/ volunteer at the endless events?

Owning the TV remote And, come to think of it, expecting somebody else (a woman) to know exactly where everything is, including things they've mislaid all by themselves.

Is that still the norm, Dragonlette - men assuming they can just do whatever, without having to think about the family? I'm hoping not :( If it is, we really haven't got very far at all: you're basically describing a "partner as staff" situation.

... ... this is making me think of all sorts of domestic trivia, which total a huge burden of wifework, like "Haven't we got any drawing pins / clean towels / breakfast?" and which women should be challenging, like "I don't know, did you buy/wash/make any?" I don't want to get all told off for this, but sometimes I do feel like stamping my little feet in frustration at my fellow woman!

DH did most of the nights with our children when they were small.

He has never needed much sleep and I do. It worked for us. Most people were horrified and I have a friend (female) who STILL brings it up.

Talking through TV programs and films yet expecting there to be silence when it is something they want to watch. Dp seems to wait for a really gripping part of my program before announcing that his nose is itchy or something equally trivial and annoying. That might just be him, but I suspect it's not. (He's done it just this minute which is why I'm thinking about it now)

Expecting that sport/exercise/interests will continue just as it always has once you have children and life will be organised around it. Most of my female colleagues and friends have to check with their partners or organise childcare if they want to go to a club/class whereas their partners don't check with them that it's ok to go to the gym, they just decide on the day and text "I'm going to the gym, I'll be back late". The default seems to be that mum is home with the dcs and dad has to be consulted if he is needed to provide childcare in order for her to have time out.

And just wanted to add, the last male privilege is that they don't even see that they ARE privileged

Which is why they get so huffy when we point out these things to them. Sometimes I think that it's so ingrained that they genuinely don't see it..,

My dp does the thing with just leaving the house and getting on with something without asking if I'm ok with doing the childcare. I seem to have to ask dd2 if she wants to come too whenever I go anywhere. I'm getting new glasses tomorrow and dd2 is coming with me to the opticians while dp goes to the gym

I'm the person most likely to be asked to clear out gone-off food in our staff room though The person who cleans up after us all is a woman, but she would actually feel very put out if other people started to do "her thing" of mothering us all even though we are all capable adults.

ABland I'd second Penguins recommendation of the Sarah Moss book. It's good.

I'm with Just too about shared spaces in the office, especially the kitchen. It is ALWAYS the women asking (mainly) the men to clear their gone off food out of the fridge. They also provide the washing-up liquid and cleaning stuff. Mind you it has its upside too. We have lovely hand cream and soaps in the ladies toilets!

Another thing my partner does is walk out of the room and get on with stuff, leaving me to look after the children without asking me if I need to do anything or just out of courtesy. He just doesn't get it. I now play him at his own game. I guess until he is inconvenienced by my actions he isn't going to get it.

Men interrupting. ( and not thinking it rude)

I met a guy tonight who said when he was 15 him and 3 male friends cycled all the way to Germany, stayed in youth hostels and then knocked on farmers' doors in Germany and lived in a barn for a few weeks. For a girl of that age, that sort of experience would be unimaginable..!

I've noticed the same thing as Noble about boys in classes taking over and dominating the classroom.

I've just bought that book Penguins. I hope it's good.

I really enjoyed reading the early posts on this thread and I am amazed by the patience shown when dealing with the derailing posters (that's how it is in classrooms, you can't just ignore them because they just shout louder, and accuse me of sexism because I dare to spend time with the girls who are quietly struggling). I hope we can have a proper discussion now.

I don't notice the buggy walking thing so much here where the paths are nice and wide, but so obvious in areas with narrow cobbled pavements and roads - stick the baby in the road and get out of the way of the man!
Weirdly I went to school in such a place and it was a male teacher (with young dc) who pointed it out.

I'm going to keep an eye on this buggy thing I do "walk like I own the pavement" and probably did when I was pushing baby vehicles - I don't know. Because I'm making little plans to cirumnavigate babies coming towards me, I've not paid attention to what's going on with other pedestrians.
I will need to start using a powered chair occasionally; I expect a whole bunch of fresh issues.

What about going around half naked? Especially when your shirtless bloke cat-calls young women in summer clothes? The nerve!

I wrote this on another thread tonight and realised it fits here...

I have been carrying out a little experiment recently when walking with the buggy and the DD's. I realised that, as I walk along a pavement, I am always looking ahead, working out whether we are going to 'get in anyone's way'. Ushering us all to one side of the pavement.

But I realised that actually, I have as much right to the pavement as anyone coming towards me. Yes, we shouldn't block the way, but nor do we need to throw ourselves in a hedge.

What I have noticed is that quite a few men are deeply uncomfortable with this. The idea that we have to sort of navigate round one another. They probably weren't even aware that they had expected us out of the way by the time we reached one another. But they had. One man even swore at us.

Yes on thank you notes. We had a new baby recently. Not one sod would have expected DH to write notes for the lovely things we were sent. It's not that I resented thanking people, but it is very clearly expected by society that I will do so. I also bet that very few men bought the things we were sent.

So there is this entitlement that cards will be sent, presents bought, givers thanked, without any effort.

Feeds into wifework. I consciously never took on presents and cards for DH's family. But I notice that the frequent lack of them has resulted over the years in a tail off of birthday presents to me from his family. But not to him. He still gets them, because it's his family. I have been judged and found wanting.

I just save my energy for other things so I'll live with it.

I picked up a prescription the other week, it was busy and I was one of three women with buggies waiting, not a lot of space so hanging back to try and leave privacy, the other women leave as a bunch of men arrive see me waitingand theoretically stand behind me but then jump forward as soon as the chemist appears, twice. Am fed up by now so wait right by the counter and get a dirty look for not letting an elderly man go first.

Chemist again this morning, different one which is massive plenty of space to queue and allow privacy, no one else there bloke queues by standing right next to my elbow as I try and have a private conversation about my meds.

Fuck off with the I'm more important than you, I must show that I need to be seen urgently by infringing on your personal space and basic manners.

Some classics from my DH:
I just don't see cleaning as high on my list of priorities. (yes, we had words - but I think this is a common attitude, that women care more about domestic stuff vs women actually just recognising that it has to be done eventually)

Also 'i think we agree about X' no, we don't I just haven't discussed it with you before

Glad to see this thread getting back on track.

1. Thank you cards. My side doesn't expect them, h's side does. In-laws always ask me to get a pen and pad at Christmas/birthdays so that I can note down who has given what, for the thank you cards. It's taken a good few years of me handing that pad and pen to h (and a few years of no thank you cards sent) for that particular one to go away.

1. Yes to being expected to get out of the way. Yes also to hogging the armrests/needing enough space to give their balls some air. I find that when I'm sitting opposite a man on the train, it's not uncommon for him to stretch his legs out their full length. I'm short, so don't take up a lot of leg room, but this still annoys me

1. I was in university recently, and asked a classmate how many women were on her course. A male classmate called me a sexist for not asking one of the men, as they could have answered the question as well. My question was "well why shouldn't I have asked the woman?"

1. The men get served any second helpings in my IL's house, and if there is any left over, then the women are asked if they want any second helpings.

1. The common assumption that it is the woman who will be responsible for childcare/domestic stuff, even if both partners are working.

Here's a link to Sheryl Sandberg's TED Talk which touches upon this subject. It's one of my favourites.

"What can I do for you, lovely lady?"

Sounds harmless until you count the number of times you've heard a female trader say the same to a man. It's subtly putting you in your place.
I'm sure it is, because I routinely reply with a "gorgeous" or a "sweetheart". I'd say 20% take this with a while the rest are either or

Oh, I'm a book junkie, don't feel bad if a random aside leads me to a purchase.

I don't have expensive clothes or shoes or furnishings, I have a book habit

Well, I hate recommending books Bland because it is so personal, but I loved it. She has a good rant about baking your own bread which made me snort because it was about the time we were all talking in the pub about sourdough being needy and recommending recipes!

When men use your feminism against you in some way. "Oh, you're a feminist, you must want to be the next Sheryl Sandberg, right?"

Why, do you want to be the next Richard Branson? Or are you allowed to have your Very Own Professional Identity, not just the same as a random person with the same genitals?

The kissing thing doesn't bother me - I'm a gushy person anyway, and have lived in several places where kissing women is just manners. I sometimes do it to people who don't like it, which is embarrassing.

I'm with you on the height, though! I'm only 5'8", but so are many men and I often wear heels. I've found it advantageous to stand up if I'm seated when some geezer's being overbearing.

Looming - getting six inches too close, then sort of bending forwards a bit. It doesn't work on me, but it pains me to watch other women taking tiny steps backwards (thus, literally & metaphorically, losing ground.)

Thanks Penguins.

It turns out I already own it but have not read it.

I do appreciate that kindle stops me buying books twice...