Minor male entitlements

Swimming pools - ime, it's not the swimmer that causes the problem, but the stroke. More men swim butterfly, with loads of turbulence & splashing. (Swimming inefficiently, then, but that's their right.) A pool I used instigated a Butterfly Lane, by popular request. It made everyone happier.

You get more blokes dive-bombing pools where there are other users in the bomb zone - I don't think that counts as male entitlement, it's just being an oik.

Buffy,

'You deny the pattern of behaviour in disagreements and you deny the gendered nature that we perceive. You say you yourself aren't abusive, and that there is no gendered element to the sorts of gaslighty behaviours that we have experienced. But as you are not female and have never experienced life as a woman, I'm curious to know how you can know how it feels to be one disagreeing with a man? Why aren't our perceptions of what-it-is-like-to-be-a-woman-arguing-with-a-man valid? Why are your perceptions more valid?'

Where have I ever said my perceptions are more valid? Perceptions are perceptions. We all have our own and they change over time. However, I do talk and spend time with plenty of women. And they all have their own perceptions, which do not seem to correlate well with many I read on here. And also, when I talk about interrailing, those are not my perceptions, but facts.

Equally, it is a fact that I just moved out of the way of several women joggers and dog walkers on my morning run. I was always brought up to be chivalrous (a very outdated term) and instinctively give way to women. That, however, could also be perceived as sexist.

But, I will leave it there as I will be accused of barging in and dominating a female space. Fair enough.

involves telling women that they are personally flawed, manipulative or outright liars when there is disagreement. Several of us report having experienced this, and perceiving somewhat of a pattern. Maybe, from the other side, you perceive a pattern in how women argue. I don't know, you'd have to tell me how this looks from your perspective.

Good point! Without the slightest goady intent, Larry, do please answer this: it could actually be constructive.

When I was young, 'interrailing' was a rite of passage indulged in equally by girls and boys

Yes, I did it I am not sure how much more dangerous it is now. It was, of course, fairly dangerous back in the '70s and all of us had some squeaky escapes (or not), girls and boys.

I stopped hitch-hiking after the SECOND time I jumped out of a moving car due to imminent rape. (Cars didn't have central locking then - that alone has made it much more dangerous.) I would still pick up a hitch-hiker, but these days I make a value judgement before doing so. Back then I always stopped.

This thread isn't about real risks, though, but perceptions. Your remark, It is about an enhanced perception of risk. actually is the point. Young men still feel enabled/empowered to trust random strangers, certainly more than young women do. I am sure this has quite a bit to do with 'rapey' culture - women in the 70s were definitely not presented as sexual commodities by all our media, like they are now. And it's reasonable to infer that this has significantly increased the actual risk of sexual exploitation.

Oh god! The swimming pool! A great example of how, in confined spaces where people have to make compromises in order to get along, it's the women who are expected to work around the men.
Same on crowded Tube trains too. No, it's fine, I wasn't actually physically occupying that space you just barged into. I'll just move, shall I?

"I give my young sons an unnuanced and simple message when they come out with a sexist comment."

"Buggies are used as convenient placed for uninterested mothers to park babies while they compare trendy accessories"

Oh bollocks, my irony meter broke again.

I am also all for an 'ignore' button.

Yes, Puffins, you are right, I will depart.

However, if men are unwelcome in this section, and they clearly are (even Pan), it might be time for FWR to dissociate with MN and find another host, as the ethos of MN is that all are welcome to post.

I am all for women only spaces (and men only spaces) but not on a parenting website.

Would you like to borrow my SGM "Hide Poster" imaginary button, Puffins?

Just waiting to see how long this derail will go on for, because the man has come back to share his manly (and therefore far more important and reasonable) view.

Shame, the thread was just getting interesting again.

'I know this is rehashing last night again slightly but I am just astounded by how quickly men can resort to personal remarks when a woman is engaging them in serious debate.'

Sorry, but really? I am NEVER personally abusive, and have hence have maybe had one post deleted in 6 years on this site. However, just have a look at the personal vitriol directed to me yesterday in this debate. It is not a man/woman thing. It is a personal thing.

And what is this victimhood thing? When I was young, 'interrailing' was a right of passage indulged in equally by girls and boys (or men and women, it was kind of 16-21 agegroup). None of the females were remotely worried about being attacked. We all slept on trains etc. Being strong is really irrelevant. If you are a stranger to a culture and someone sets out to attack you or rob you, being 6'7 is unlikely to help. Sometimes shit happens. It is about an enhanced perception of risk.

I give my young sons an unnuanced and simple message when they come out with a sexist comment. Girls and boys can both do what they want and the important thing is who someone is, not what sex they are.

I swim regularly and male swimmers are so much more selfish.

They splash about a lot more (a lot), they don't "fit in" with an existing lane but just do their thing and everyone else has to get out of the way.

They are a lot less considerate on the whole.

Nice post, Luis, thanks.

I know we are told that men are more often the victims of violence but I suspect a large part of that is down to the fact that inculcated caution circumscribes our lives.

Hah, I used to write guide books and had a massive row with my editor about this. I put that much of my safety advice would be second nature to women; all they really had to do was apply the safety rules they follow at home. Men would need to adopt a more cautious mindset [followed by said advice]. My view was that women are already nervous and, if I didn't recognise this fact, there was a risk they'd either feel patronised (and not read the advice) or assume my advice was on top of what they already do and decide the destination country was too dangerous! He told women don't feel endangered at home and take no more precautions than men.
He had three daughters - god knows how he still managed to think he knew more about what women think than them, me, or his wife!

Thanks for the reassurance, Dragonlette :) It still seems painfully slow in the adjustment!!

It's the same as how female politicians are expected to be 'nice' all the time. 'Nobody likesa harridan' aand all that. Some horribly sexist things have been said about Nicola Sturgeon recently, 'nippy sweetie' and all that.

(Luis, thanks)

Things will get better. My sons are feminists. Men vary. Not all are as bad as seen on the thread. In my own marriage there was no assumption I would do more childcare (I ultimately earned 10x more than he did in part because of the feminist start - that we agreed my career would come first as I would earn more - so in our case no him walking out expect me to mind the childrenAlso in the 1960s my father did lal the night feeds (except for my first month we were all bottle fed) as he had been used to broken nights as a doctor and my mother needed sleep. So there was a man doing just about 100% of the night feeds in the 1960s and he hoovered the house on Saturdays etc. If you have that wonderful non sexist family going back decades it really helps. Also his aunts all 3 of them worked in the 1920s. Indeed on the other side of the family my grandmother took herself off to india to work int he 1920s.

On exciting gap years or university holidays my daughters did some pretty exciting trips. I remember one did 6 weeks in Central America - 5 girls, 24 hour bus journeys and all that stuff - she now plays a sport of England and some of those girls are very strong so I think they can protect themselves. My mother also made me learn judo at school in the 70s so we could defend ourselves. Other daughter on her gap year was even on that island in the news where the couple have been killed. I think we need to try to breed girls who are fearless fit and strong and of course feminist.

Also challenge sexism when it's there. I never let a conversation go even with a taxi driver where he says something sexist or racist which might imply I accept the view. I don't start shouting in their faces but I might say something like not everyone agrees with that view etc.

Thanks, Luis.

I know this is rehashing last night again slightly but I am just astounded by how quickly men can resort to personal remarks when a woman is engaging them in serious debate. And they don't even notice they're stepping over that boundary quite often. It's incredibly off-putting. 'Let me give you a critique of your unsatisfactory personality' - why is my personality relevant to the issue?!

I think it's less the norm than it was Garlic. I'm thinking of couples where both work but the woman does all the school/nursery/cm runs which means that of course she is at home with the kids when they are home. Their husbands/partners are then free to stop at the gym or the pub on the way home. Or they are part of a sport club/team ans it "doesn't seem fair to ask him to give it up" but the woman wouldn't dream of joining a club or team that took that much time away from the family. It's perspective really, I think the men would be perfectly happy for the women to join clubs etc but there would need to be consultation about it in a way that men don't seem to need.

Buffy I think you've missed the point slightly