Minor male entitlements

I do find it strange that, given the title, a number of the posts from men were either addressed at a given poster (get a grip et al) or immediately adding one or more "female" examples without first acknowledging some of the "male" examples given or giving new "male" examples.

Having thought about it a bit more, it feels like it's a fear reaction.

Women are sharing experiences, they expose a mild level of male privilege, but I am a nice guy, I would never patronise or deliberately oppress women, how can I counteract this?

Cue:

You're wrong
Women do it too
I don't do it so no man does it
You're lying
I want to talk about this other thing now, and will continue to refer to it until you fall into line

Type posts.

What I don't get is the fear. If you're a nice guy who supports equality, then surely having low level stuff which can be easily sorted is better than being constantly faced with huge insurmountable problems? I know it is for me when told about low level stuff people of colour face, while I can't break down societal barriers because I don't have the power, I can stop doing stupid thoughtless stuff which makes life more unpleasant for PoC, because I know I have privilege in those situations. Why would men not want to do the same?

So this is an interesting question. How do we challenge it in some of the circumstances detailed in this thread?
Ways of challenging it often involve either being regarded as rude, or risking provoking aggression. And it would be rare for the man in question to understand the point we were trying to make anyway.
When I'm walking down the street I can refuse to move over, yes. But in the pool? In the office?

Buffy & Greengrow

I shall take this opportunity to write the post I never write, then ...

MN: Men do this & that undermining behaviour to women.
Me: Well, don't let them!
MN: But I've been socialised to give way to it.
Me: Why not do this & that instead?
MN: You just don't get it! Waah!

Although, actually, I do get it and that's why I'm a feminist. We have to identify & name these things before acquiring tools to overcome them.

("Doing this & that" would apply to minor entitlements, not deliberately aggressive acts. They're a whole other bunch of topics.)

Puffin certainly writes it as it is.
I also resent when people say I must be male because I will often a have a view and know it's right and say so or because I like money and power and success. I find that really sexist. Many people male or female have no ambition at all and it's not fair to say women who happen to be the kind of woman who is ambitious are somehow not women or wrote or not female.

I'll leave Buffy to reply to your 11:35 post, Larry, as it's addressed to her

I'm agreeing with the above points about different verbal styles for different circumstances. Forums are a bit tricky, as they simulate a RL conversation in writing - so qualifiers help to fill in the bits we'd convey through tone of voice, facial expression, etc. In the context of this very topic, for instance, I could VERY easily contribute a mini-essay entitled "Women need to grow some balls!" It'd be full of my frustrations at women's general reluctance to take what is their right ... and this thread's all about men taking those things from women, so I'd come over unsympathetic and blaming.
I honestly don't think I give this impression in real life! But written speech calls for more anticipation & consideration. Imo.

No one has said that men shouldn't be able to post here. What a ridiculous, flouncy, gaslighting thing to say!

What happened on this thread yesterday was that a few women posted some fairly mild gripes about small male entitlements, and 3 men, who have a history of dismissing women's lived experience, came along to tell us that that lived experience was wrong. That women do it too. That in fact, women are worse because they also do these things...... When they were called out on it, one disappeared, one went on the attack and the other just carried on bringing up more and more spurious examples.

This has nothing to do with who hosts the discussions. Or do we all have to agree that we're just making up our lived experience to meet men's exacting demands about how women behave online?

Anyway, enough of following this derail. Although it has been an object lesson in minor male entitlement again. Men's voices MUST be heard, even in feminist discussion, or the women should find somewhere else to speak.

Buffy,

Yes, I see what you are saying. However, I do think that in a discussion about values/ideas, that whatever anyone states has to be taken as their opinion and too many 'I thinks' and 'it seems' lead to very long verbose posts. I see this as more internet forum language vs master's essay language. I would not write in the same way in both fora.

But, yes, I see how it could be misperceived. I am also multitasking these days so don't have hours to craft beautiful posts. Apologies if my language is too stark.

Thanks Buffy! I think it stems from men being encouraged to take a view on 'how things are' from an early age. I find it intriguing to listen to my male colleagues talking to each other. They will make such absolutist statements of fact with complete assurance. When one of them is shown to be wrong there is no mockery or rubbing his face in it, it's just brushed aside.
I marvel at their confidence in making such absolutist statements of fact and judgement, and I also marvel at their ability to brush off finding that they are totally wrong. It doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest. I'd be mortified.

I see women shout at and bully fellow workers because they are in a superior position.

And how often does a woman shout at a man who is her superior?

I have also had incidences with Muslim men, not all of them, just some. And you know what? The white converts are the worst.

Yes that's right I'm making a huge racist generalisation. The fact that it is my experience should of course be ignored because I'm not a man.

Here's another.
If a woman wants to make a statement in a serious debate she often hedges and caveats and softens and finesses it to within an inch of its life, because otherwise she is likely to get dragged into a quagmire of what-aboutery in which her original point will be lost and the men involved in the conversation will chalk it up as a win because they think they have demolished her argument.

It makes starting to get involved in a discussion so time consuming and wearing that women sometimes don't bother even starting.
I know I feel that way a lot of the time.

Garlic,

Yes, true. I once did a course in giving and receiving annual appraisals. It is very true that most people detest criticism, even when constructively given. I once gave someone an annual review which was glowingly positive and we spent the next hour discussing the one element which I had suggested could improve. We all have to fight that tendency in ourselves.

I do have a tendency to play devil's advocate - Heh, me too

I had to learn a long time ago, though, that it's not enough to say "That's tosh, you're wrong." Funnily enough, your co-debater takes it as an insult and assumes you're just there for a macho face-off. You have to show some level of appreciating their point of view or, if you really think it's tosh, ask them for a clue. Otherwise, you'll never actually 'win' an argument; only the face-off.

'involves telling women that they are personally flawed, manipulative or outright liars when there is disagreement. Several of us report having experienced this, and perceiving somewhat of a pattern. Maybe, from the other side, you perceive a pattern in how women argue. I don't know, you'd have to tell me how this looks from your perspective.'

I am never personal. Personal abuse shows intellectual flaws. I DON'T perceive a pattern in how women argue. I think there may be subtle differences between men and women but they are overwhelmed by other factors. There is certainly a pattern in how women on this board argue, but that is another matter altogether. I take each person how I find them.

I do have a tendency to play devil's advocate (which I sometimes overdo). I do that equally to men and women, though, and try to avoid it on sensitive issues (though I have made mistakes here, sometimes).

May I expand on that? It's a tiny derail. What matters in discussion, as I'm sure you understand, Larry, is not the foot-putting but the subsequent response.

"I misunderstood you there; I see you meant XYZ. Thanks for explaining. I agree/disagree with XYZ because of ABC."

or

"I'm sorry I offended, it was unintentional. Would you mind explaining?"

Not very hard; we all do it all the time ... don't we?

Everyone puts their foot in it sometimes. This doesn't demonstrate anything unusual.

'There are several male posters who do just fine.'

Not many, and not for long. The sensitivities are so high that they all put their foot in it accidentally, eventually.