Minor male entitlements

Erm, how to put this...

Yes, I do think you need to say "I find X boring" if you are talking about something which is very important to a lot of people. Particularly if you are known for making strong and sweeping factual statements on matters domestic.

ABland I'm sure you know the other posts I mean!

But everyone knows that what is boring is a subjective thing. Do we really have to say "I find it boring" rather than "it's very boring" to make that subjectivity clear?

"I think you're possibly reacting to things Greengrow has said at other times rather than that particular post?"

Elegantly phrased

Mini - I think maybe a big part of the issue is phrasing. Given that you don't have facial expressions, etc to guide you, when someone says "it is very boring", if you don't find it boring, or actually think it is a valuable part of your day and use of your time, you instinctively often respond "no it isn't" and become defensive. If someone says "I find it very boring and would rather allocate it to others" it is more immediately obvious it is an opinion, and that other opinions are also valid. So less likely to trigger that type of response.

Of course, we can all phrase things however we like, but different phrasing does produce different results. Personally I like pick up. Drop off I find dull, but I like it when they come out of the door, see you, and grin. And I like the slow decompression of walking home and starting to talk.

Elephants I really don't see what's wrong with Greengrow saying she finds school pickup boring and would rather allocate it to others.

a) she has pointed out that she earned 10x her husband - maybe he was the one doing pickups, not the nanny/CM that you assume.

b) even if it was a nanny/CM - I don't think her comment implied she had "forgotten" she could only do her job by using their services. She just didn't mention it. Are we all supposed to say "and of course I can only do this thanks to my wonderful nanny/cleaner/au pair" every time we mention our careers? Lest we be seen to be taking them for granted?

c) Saying you find a particular task boring is not the same as demeaning the people who you have delegated it to. I'd get bored if I spent all day every day looking after my DD. Our nanny doesn't. Doesn't mean I am better than her - just means we enjoy different things.

I think you're possibly reacting to things Greengrow has said at other times rather than that particular post?

I liked doing school pick up too. If I did it now though, I think DS would never forgive me. If I drop him off, I have to leave him round the corner.

The cookies for doing stuff that never gets noticed if I do it drives me bonkers though. That and I am the only person who changes the hand towels, refills the loo roll caddy, sprays the shower after I've used it. It also turns out that I am the sock matching pixie, who knew.

DH is really good though, don't get me wrong, but he does expect to be thanked for doing things which just have to be done in order for the house to run smoothly.

I don't always want to do school pick up, DD2 used to whinge not talk about her day, but greengrows comment was patronising beyond belief.

I too am a SAHM and I get totally fucked off by 'career women' forgetting they can only earn what they do by relying on poorly paid nursery workers and CMs to do the things they feel are beneath them.

It does the cause of feminism no good, if bright women simply treat less educated women in a similar way to a boss interacting with his female admin staff.

'It really doesn't make you sound a nice person if you don't want to pick up your DCs sometimes and hear be the first to hear the ups and downs of their day.'

Really, Elephants?
My dcs don't talk about school on the way home - it all seeps out later in the course of the evening.
I am a SAHM but I'd happily delegate the school pickup if I could! I don't think it means someone's not nice.

I've never done school collection as it's very boring as I'd rather allocate it to others.

Other lower paid women Nannies and CMs you mean!

It really doesn't make you sound a nice person if you don't want to pick up your DCs sometimes and hear be the first to hear the ups and downs of their day.

The rest of your post was really good, but you spoil it totally with that ridiculously smug last line.

So right, chunky.

A lot of my talking is giving talks. Often more men than women will be present and they have paid hundreds of pounds to hear me. I suspect that is a very different context from most women's experiences. So I speak - 3 hours tomorrow for example - I like it when people have questions and I never have problems with men not shutting up but the dynamic is me in charge so none of them would misbehave. We need many more women do do this kind of thing. Half of lawyers are women and yet at the courses I speak at women don't speak anything like as much as men do. I planned a course earlier this year for later this year and proposed 100% female speakers as an experiment. We have ended up with 2 men and 2 women and that will be because women turned down the change to speak. That 50/50 is fine as I am also speaking and chairing but 100% would have been nicer.

Also I go on Radio 4 from time to time and often women turn down the chance to do that. I'm not surprised it often means a car at 6.30am and your morning routine disturbed or out late and there is no fee. When my children were smaller it was easier for me than other women as I earn 10x their father so my career was our best investment and I always loved the sound of my own voice.

My only point here is as a woman at work do push yourself forward to be the one giving the talk, doing the session, taking up the chance to go on the radio or TV even if it puts you out and means getting out of bed early. We need more women doing that kind of thing.

On sitting I sit most of the day with one leg up on my thigh - a sort of half lotus. I love it when I get an empty plane seat next to me as I can spread like that. I certainly don't mind taking up lots of space and bring a big bad to assert my right to more space.

I've never done school collection as it's very boring as I'd rather allocate it to others.

The buggy thing has been on my mind since I read this thread. Personally I hate the things, and only use one if I know my toddler is going to be out for so long he'll need somewhere to nap. Otherwise I carry him (on shoulders - too heavy for the sling now) or now he's nearly 1 I even make him walk.

I think that larry is confusing taking the kids out for the afternoon to spend time with them and having the kids with you while you have to do everything else. As the place where the kid-care buck stops, I have the kids with me when shopping, when trying to do DIY, cook, garden, wash, wee, work and everything else - so yes, you know sometimes they are just there and I'm looking at something else (although I have been known to do most things with a baby in one arm when I have to..). So there's an entitlement being displayed - being able to enjoy the kids, and not have to do all the boring stuff for/with them

Sorry for bringing the derail back a bit, but it's really been grinding my gears judging a parent like that!

The way the only Dad who picked up from school was allowed always to be late. "He's got a business"
He never looked faintly apologetic.

If any of the mums were that late they scurried in looking sorry.

Well, that it just it. I felt that this was just the ways things were done, gender irrelevant! I do think it has had an impact on the way that men react to me though because any interaction is a two way thing!

And as for driving/parking at school collection time ...9

I'm sorry don't men drive at these times? Is there some law I don't know about?

I get the impression only the man can do the jokes, my role is to be amused. Anyone else experience this?

Oh yes. I worked at one company who I later found out had been taken to court for its racist and sexist hiring policies for management (figures, huh!?). I have been told I am quite funny, but at this one company I worked at, the jokes kept falling flat amongst these very sexist men. I almost gave up, except one time I cracked a funny, and it was clear that the men were having real trouble keeping the giggles in. I realised that it wasn't me, it was them.

My father did most of those things with me, except the pub bit (he didn't tend to go to the pub at all.) I am pretty sure it wasn't treating us as boys, though, but just teaching us stuff because it's useful. I think that's partly why I am a feminist, because I saw other people didn't have that experience, and there wasn't actually any reason for it (except the bit where they didn't grow up on a farm.) It was also reading things like "women can't read maps" and knowing that's just rot, because most of the women I know can.

I don't think how your Dad treated you would necessarily be reflected for the rest of your life in how other men treat you Cherries. In fact I don't see how that is relevant. It may have changed your behaviour. But it doesn't change the behaviour of men in general and it wouldn't change their perception of you that you are a woman and in some eyes that means you are below them in the hierarchy. Especially if they don't know you e.g. taking up space on trains, in swimming pools etc.

But have you wondered why your Dad treated you as a boy and not just you? What is wrong with being a girl? Why did he have to treat you as a boy to do those things with you?

I don't get many of these problems to be honest but I think it was because my dad always treated me like a boy and included me in his macho world, took me with him to work in argriculture, the pub (when pubs were full if blokes and it was beer and peanuts not wine and food) and let me fix trucks and taught me to read maps! It's an upbringing thing!