Minor male entitlements

Green, we have this argument with you all the time - not all people are bored of kids after 2-3 hours ( I hope your nannies weren't, for one!) and it's rude of you to insist that they are.

I, personally, agree that working is more fun for me than childcare, but I don't insist everyone feels the same.

The other thing, of course, is that housework has to be done by someone or by several someones and not everyone can afford to pay someone else, even if they out earn their husbands by some modest multiple.

They are interesting topics. I said much of the life nad work of women at home is deadly dull and I believe that to be so. I have adored bearing children breastfeeding them, cuddling them, talking and reading to them and that for 2 or 3 hours a day is great. More than that and it is too much particularly as most of the role is clearing up sick and the like - we had three children under 5. This is not a male conspiracy. It is pure fact. Every culture at every stage has always off loaded dull domestic stuff downwards. The Romans used slaves. The Victorians had 1m servants etc etc Women in the UK off loads much of the domestic role as soon as they can afford too - that is not because their eyes have not been opened to how wonderful it is to clean the loos but that in fact much of the domestic role is not interesting. To con women into thinking all they have to do is look at the role of washing the 5th load of baby clothes that day as some wonderful life and then all is well does women a huge disservice and keeps us down and chained.

"I suppose if someone is a SAHM, enjoys it and regards it as something important they are doing, it is unfortunate (and rude) to tacitly accuse them of feeling this way because they are stupid"

As someone who has just scaled back my work (self-employed) massively because I felt that prioritising my exisiting child, expectant child and my own health (physical and mental) was currently more important I just wanted to say thank you for your comment above, Buffy. I believe work is important, I hate not having any financial independence, I strongly identify with feminist ideals, but both DH and I wanted our children to have a parent at home during their early years and this outweighed all other considerations to me. And yes, DH could have stayed at home, but due to a long period of ill-health in my twenties I am massively behind him on the career ladder and not working in such a financially rewarding field either, so boring old logistics won out.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on this in FWR, I may still do it, but it seemed relevant to the thread so out it blurted. Basically I had to compromise somewhere, I chose work as the lesser sacrifice, but am struggling to reconcile that with my feminist ideals.

And in terms of the minor male entitlements - telling me what I am thinking/should be thinking/that I'm wrong because I disagree are the things that wond me up above and beyond almost everything else. The one thing that is truly mine is my brain and my thoughts - don't you dare deny me that.

Oh, I dunno. Better ask a man.

Oh, good, we're not diametrically opposed

looking at how something is valued (i.e. paid) in a capitalist patriarchy is exactly the wrong way to determine what is important in a feminist sense

I disagree, perhaps diametrically! Economic devaluation of 'womens work' is both a symptom and a cause of oppression. My preferred solutions generally involve re-distributing work, value, and expectations.

FWIW, I don't think every mother should have a right to choose to SAH.

There's quite a lot of evidence that occupations lose value when they become predominantly female: teachers in the UK; doctors in Russia; clerks/typists; nurses. Plus, of course, SAHM work is traditionally done by servants.

These occupations generally seem to acquire emotional 'value' as they lose economic status. It's like some sort of booby prize. This might be why we often get annoyed with people acknowledging their low economic value without elevating their moral status (as Greengrow apparently did.)

I feel like I should say he's not the only Chinese person I know just the one who is most vocal about something we had noticed iyswim.

That's an interesting point Buffy.

My DHs best friend is from China and he is always full of praise of SAHM and their role educating and emotionally supporting everyone - seems to be culturally quite a high status role (not necessarily what you would expect from China, a country which clearly has sexism issues in other ways)

I said some tasks are boring so I get others to do them. I don't think that means I am denigrating women or men who choose to do those tasks.

I think there is pernicious sexism in the suggestion I often see on mumsnet and in the wider world though that somehow there is something special and full of worth about a woman staying at home with a child and doing the house stuff. It is a technieque many a man uses - he will say "I could not do what my wife does" My wife has the hardest job in the world. She's a saint. That sentiment is what keeps women down - the elevation of the duller tasks to something special for which we sanctify and praise women rather than saying - more fool you to get landed with the muggins jobs when you could be out there like men having a more balanced life of earning a lot and exerting power in the world. Let us have the thrones rather than some awful kind of power behind the throne rubbish.

1. So how do I as a woman deal with a random man shouting at me just because I'm a woman? It's not upbringing and I'm not a victim.

1. Noone expects women to love the shit work that is involved in bringing up children or running a home. It's shit work which is undervalued by society. Making sarky comments about it being some 'sacred thing' is shitty.

I am certainly not disputing there is no causal sexism. There is far too much of it although the more women can seize power the less men will see them as domestic servants.

This point, I agree with most heartily. I'm all in favour of feminism encouraging women to 'take back' (= get hold of in the first place) social & verbal space being annexed by men.

The contempt of SAHM duties, not so much Wouldn't be my choice, but lots of people find my choices boring! Are you the poster that sold her tropical island, by any chance?

1. Yes, I agree that being the speaker is a different context. I don't tend to get the same trouble with men even in the breaks as I might when out and about (I sometimes cycle and quite often men whistle or slow down or wind down the window which is ridiculous at my age). I am certainly not disputing there is no causal sexism. There is far too much of it although the more women can seize power the less men will see them as domestic servants.

1. It is never wise for women on mumsnet to suggest some domestic tasks or boring. I should have learned that by now. Housework and childcare is some sacred thing we should all want to do 24/7 because it is some higher calling.

about that Amy Cuddy TED talk and men spreading their legs and arms all over - it's also a privilege, isn't it, that men are not discouraged from doing that. First by wardrobe choices - it's quite difficult to spread your legs in an "appropriate" business wardrobe for women, pencil skirt suit or shift dress. Also, since we were kids, we girls were always told that this is not proper and pretty and ladylike. And we should sit, arms and legs neatly folded.

Now, we saw that just 2 minutes of folding yourself lowers your testosterone, raises your cortisone and therefore makes you less confident. I would guess that effects of a whole lifetime of folding are quite noticeable.

Not that there is anything wrong with those jobs at all btw. Just remarkable how differently men behave towards me when they think that's what I do. Makes me quite angry tbh. I never notice women treating other women so differently on the basis of work status.
(NAM of course).

On the subject of work environments, I find it both hilarious and frustrating that I'm often mistaken for an older man's research assistant or PA at industry events, purely by dint of happening to stand next to him. No one man in particular, I mean. Just whoever I'm talking to at the time, other men assume I'm with them in a junior role.
I used to head up an organisation which among other things ran seminars for senior professionals in a particular field. Every time, at least half of the delegates would think I was the receptionist, catering manager, etc etc...

It is amusing watching them realise their mistake, twig OH SHIT SHE'S ONE OF US, backtrack and then do that insouciant 'lalala you didn't just see me do that' thing which cats do after falling off the fence or a windowsill.
A kind of tacit 'Let us never speak of this again' vibe.

I was about to point out that many men don't feel the need to qualify their opinions in that way!

Penguins I guess it's a question of how much a poster cares about being tactful...

Isn't this slightly where we came in with the style of some of Larry's statements?