Just got on a train...

if we're all so ridiculous glovender, why do you keep coming back? isn't it just a waste of your time and energy trying to explain this all to us?

It's interesting isn't it? Well, it is to me. Two fairly obvious points and neither dealt with honestly. You're all intelligent people, so why such evasive barracking? If you believe in your stance, then you should be able to provide square answers, surely and not hide behind obfuscation and the usual (weak and hypocritical imo) "mansplainer" cat calls.

1. The majority of people have a price. No £20 isn't alright for me personally, but no, it wouldn't need to be millions at a point of extreme desparation. If you need extremes to prove your point, then your point isn't valid. Most people have a price and, for some people, that amount is at a level other people are willing to pay. Supply and demand.

2. Yes, the industry is riddled with exploitation. This is an important point or a crucial point depending on who much semantics you want to get into. Does that make prostituition exploitation or does it mean that the industry - in its current format is exploitative? That's a genuine question that, amongst a general audience (ie not you lot) would have divided views. What I am certain of, however, is that you could criminalise it all until the cows come home, but the exploitation would not stop and, potentially get even worse. And for the Chaotic Capstan, the existence of one factor does not disprove other factors. That's pretty basic stuff tbh. Did you not see the Josh Brandon interviews recently?

News flash!

Patriarchy hurts men too!

Men exploit prostituted males. They are usually young and in my experience, vulnerable runaways in the main. They are also almost exclusively straight. They tend to do it to pay for those little luxuries such as a roof over their heads and end up doing it to find the drug/alcohol habit they've started in order to survive.

Surely his price is exactly what he would pay, or would think it reasonable to pay?

I mean, because otherwise he would be thinking that he was 'worth more' than the women that he would pay to fuck him? And that would either be extremely arrogant, or an acknowledgement that there are other forces in play which makes them more susceptible to economic exploitation, would it not?

If only we could get the punters to see that there is neither any dignity in having sex with someone who is not enjoying it. Would they then see how cheaply they price their own dignity?

It's a curious moral stance we have - "It's ok for me to do what ever I want to you, provided I give you enough money".

Why is it not turned back on the punter "If you can't get someone to do it for free, why does money make it alright to do?"

I suppose it stems from some very circular reasoning "I may be expecting someone to do this thing I know they wouldn't do for free, but they are willing to do it for money. The fact that they are willing to be 'bought' must mean that they are less deserving of dignity than someone who will not be bought. Because they are willing to be bought, they can be treated with less dignity. Because they are willing to be treated with less dignity, it must be alright for me to treat them with less dignity".

And no. There is no dignity in having sex that you do not enjoy.

glovender usually comes here to cut through the "foaming" i think. either way, likes to show us the irrational errors of our ways or somesuch

Quite how the mantra that you've just invented stands up to anything is a mystery.

Oh wait, it doesn't, and no one but you said it.

"An important aspect of this, of course, is that it is probably impossible to be absolutely sure that the man or woman is not being exploited and, therefore, be certain that one is not committing rape."

a crucial point surely, rather than a footnote

I find it difficult to imagine that there are many people that couldn't be bought to enage in sexual activity. For some maybe it would be a million... but the act remains fundamentally the same. So, whilst it is certainly true that there is exploitation*, there are also women that are at ease with making a financial arrangement and do so willingly and independently. Such absolutism as can be seen in this thread further distances the Feminist movement from the majority of men and women who do not recognise that portrayal.

• An important aspect of this, of course, is that it is probably impossible to be absolutely sure that the man or woman is not being exploited and, therefore, be certain that one is not committing rape. I say man or woman there because, obviously, there are many male prostitutes. Quite how the mantra of 'prostitution is 100% about men controlling women' stands up iro male prostitutes, I'm not sure. No doubt some mocking censorian will now tell me that this point was debated and agreed by feminists years ago and isn't up for discussion anymore, least of all with the likes of me who is, after all, a stupid misogynist MRA troll (not all internet contributors are created equal don't ya know ;) )

Anyway, I'll let you all get back to your foaming.

The more these trolls invade MN with their misogynistic rhetoric, the more I am in favour of the Nordic Model.

It just cements in my mind how women-hating these scumbags who pay for sex are.

Wonderful. Oh well. Back to unpacking, I'll leave the boring twunt in your capable hands.

they can if they get another IP address and email. then they can just sign in with another consonant/vowel/consonant/vowel/consonant/vowel/consonant/vowel/consonant/vowel

I thought PBPs were supposed not to come back and dribble again?

Lucky punter279 is here, as I've only got Rachel Moran unchecked onU bingo card...

feministire.com/2014/01/05/sex-trafficking-in-sweden-according-to-the-swedish-police/

re trafficking in Sweden, the police don't actually what the extent of the problem is.

"So yes, in my considered opinion, I think that, done in the same way, the NM would work wonders in Germany, and thankfully there are a growing number of people who agree and are campaigning for it to be introduced. Decriminalisation in Germany has caused more problems than it was designed to solve. So you won't be able to go there and rape women for money soon either, hopefully."

Every country has its share of feminists who want criminalisation of some sort. However France recently rejected the Nordic model, Scotland has rejected the Nordic model more than once in recent years, and I don't see Germany changing its law any time soon.

btw prostitution in Germany is regulated, not decriminalised.

Way to miss the point by selectively quoting, punter279.