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Original poster

Why are feminists so threatened by the MRA movement?

635 replies

LaVoixDeLaRaison · 09/09/2014 18:47

When I was at university, the Gender Equality society (of which I was a member) chose to rename itself the Feminist society, arguing that the only way equality could be achieved was by focusing on women's issues. This led some other students to set up an MRA group, which was met with some resistance from the feminists. On this very board I see commenters angrily referring to MRAs as if they are all members of an evil homogeneous group.

Isn't it possible that men and women both suffer oppression from society in different ways? That the levels of this oppression are not necessarily equal, but are still important if we are to achieve equality? I often see feminists agreeing with certain 'male issues' (e.g. media stereotypes, elevated male suicide rate), but suggesting that feminism has other priorities, and if they want to do something about these issues then they should make their own groups. Why do they get criticized when they do exactly that? Better still, wouldn't feminism be better off if it didn't alienate so many men (and women, focused on a wider range of issues, and stopped pitting the sexes against one another?

OP posts:
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StevesBollockAnalogy · 10/09/2014 14:36

The issues you listed were, as far as I could tell and none of the much better read feminists taking part in this discussion corrected me, a result of gender stereotyping. This is something that would not occur should we end up with the society feminism is aiming for. So those examples are, frankly, shite. The answer is, you don't know. Because you don't know, how can you claim that shifting the patriarchy is not going to solve the discrimination against men? How can you say that we as feminists are not going about this in the right way if you have no idea what other issues you face? In response to your half arsed brain argument, I would say that we can't know if the difference between female and male brains until gender equality is eradicated, otherwise learned behaviour would influence the development of the brain.

And don't fucking get me started on what rights men have that women don't. How the hell can you call yourself a feminist when you can't even see that?

FloraFox · 10/09/2014 14:36

I mean academically honest.

Original poster
LaVoixDeLaRaison · 10/09/2014 14:36

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit
Sorry, what exactly about bodily autonomy? In this area, what rights do men have which are denied to women?

ChunkyPickle
I'm sorry that you've had to experience that, and that many many other women also experience that. But does that mean that men are unable to be sexually assaulted? Typically it's more serious when a man sexually assaults a woman (due to difference in physical size), but that doesn't mean that women have any less rights than men here. Sexual assault (regardless of gender) is a crime, and rightly so. Again, the fact that many men assume women to hold lower-paid jobs is harmful, but it does not mean that women have any less rights than men. Discrimination when hiring is illegal (unless it's 'positive' discrimination), and it's also illegal to pay a man more than a woman for the same job.

OP posts:
FloraFox · 10/09/2014 14:36

try to reach my own conclusions based on academic honesty

Are you suggesting Cordelia Fine is not academic honesty? If not, what do you mean by this?

LineRunner · 10/09/2014 14:29

Ah yes, Steven Pinker.

Original poster
LaVoixDeLaRaison · 10/09/2014 14:28

StevesBollocksAnalogy
I tried answering that but you accused me of waffling! I have never claimed to know which problems would or would not have been solved by ending the patriarchy, only that it should not be automatically assumed that all men's issues are necessarily due to the patriarchy. I cited the possible difference between male and female brains as a reason why gender inequality might persist even in the face of completely equal socialization processes. Therefore I don't feel the need to provide any more issues, as the ones I have already mentioned are still valid.

CaptChaos
Simon Baron-Cohen is a professor at one of the most respected academic institutions in the world, and has devoted his entire career to studying psychology, including whether gender differences are learned, innate, or both. Likewise, Cordelia Fine has studied at Oxford, Cambridge, and UCL, and is a very talented academic. Can I be forgiven for assuming that the majority of people in this thread (male or female, and myself included) do not have this extensive academic background? That we can certainly debate with them, but should at least accept that they have more experience in these areas?

My comments were not indicative of any 'basic assumptions about women', and I think you knew that. Please don't take offence where it was not intended.

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 10/09/2014 14:25

Oh no, PetulaGordino, don't apologise for repeating what needed to be said, it obviously wasn't heard the first time. I don't have great expectations for the second time either, TBF.

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 14:24

identifying as a feminist and an MRA at the same time is like identifying as a civil rights activist and a white supremacist at the time. you'd need a split personality

CaptChaos · 10/09/2014 14:22

I'll wait for your apology for your assumption that women on this thread are too stupid to be able to critique academic work first before I answer your latest ridiculous question.

Looks like I won't be answering it then. Those true colours shining through now aren't they?

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 14:20

oh i missed that pop there

indeed, the OP has successfully lectured a number of women here in their own specialist subjects, which is rather funny to watch

Original poster
LaVoixDeLaRaison · 10/09/2014 14:20

CaptChaos
I think friend-zoning is something that can be done by men or women. It can be emotionally quite difficult for the person on the receiving end, but it is also a difficult circumstance for the other person who is only trying to let them down gently. Of course, no one should feel entitled to a relationship with anyone just because they happen to be friends. But how on earth is any of that relevant to this discussion?

CaptChaos
TheOriginalSteamingNit
Yes she's called an anti-feminist/MRA by many, but do you get to decide who is and who is not a feminist? I daresay you'd say exactly the same thing about me, but nonetheless I identify as a feminist because I believe in gender equality.

You're making deliberately incorrect assumptions, and I think you know that was not what she was claiming at all. She was merely pointing out that the studies were flawed, and should therefore not be treated as if they were gospel. This was only a short article and could only go into limited depth, but she has explained more clearly her arguments in some of her books.

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grimbletart · 10/09/2014 14:18

True colours time. This.

Surprised it got as far as page 19 before absolute certainty arrives….

CaptChaos · 10/09/2014 14:18

Just for info, there are a lot of women on this thread who can very well hold their own academically with S B-C. Now, have a think about what that says about your basic assumptions about women. Then come back and apologise.

You yourself said hat you agreed with CF's findings but liked S B-Cs better, what does that tell us?

Why does the best science, in your opinion, get done by people with cocks?

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 14:18

more distraction from the problem of male violence, which no MRA wants to acknowledge or address

StevesBollockAnalogy · 10/09/2014 14:17

Right, I've asked you this several times but you've brought the subject up yourself now. What issues would not be dealt with by getting rid of the patriarchy? What are your examples? If you ignore this I will assume you don't have any.

ChunkyPickle · 10/09/2014 14:17

I lead a normal, and even slightly sheltered life, and I still need more fingers than I have to count the number of times I've been sexually assualted - from minor gropings/flashing to forced kissing (with tongues), to boyfriends not stopping when forcefully asked to.

1 in 5 is an underestimate.

The last is also rubbish. How many women here have assumed to be the secretary/assistant/helper rather than the actual job we're performing, expectations matter, and if you're expected to take a lower paid job then it takes effort to question it.

And as to the whole it's not 35% of women who visit the ER, but only 35% of women who visit because of violent injuries - there aren't words - who's playing shenanigans with statistics now.

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 14:16

"modern women in the western world provide a fine example of a situation in which 'oppressors' have given up their power, largely as a result of reasonable debate"

the hard work and personal sacrifice of feminists over decades dismissed, right there

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 10/09/2014 14:14

How long a list do you want?

I'll start with bodily autonomy.

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 14:10

well shall we start with getting rid of the patriarchy and if that doesn't solve men's problems we'll work from there?

m'okay?

CaptChaos · 10/09/2014 14:10

Oh god, here we go. True colours time.

Original poster
LaVoixDeLaRaison · 10/09/2014 14:09

PetulaGordino
Not only by me, but by distinguished Cambridge psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen and Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, amongst many others. I don't pretend to be anywhere near as qualified or as intelligent as Cordelia Fine, but likewise the same applies to those who disagree with her. All I can do is look at all the arguments as they were presented, and try to reach my own conclusions based on academic honesty. You can sneer at me for disagreeing with the work of an academic, but you're doing exactly the same thing.

OP posts:
Original poster
LaVoixDeLaRaison · 10/09/2014 14:06

BuffyBotRebooted

Thank you for outlining the theoretical perspective, and I accept that that is what many feminists believe. However, you admit that it is a blunt instrument, and a social rather than a scientific theory. What about the feminists who don't accept that? What if I believe that men's problems will not be solved by focusing only on removing the patriarchal power structure? Is there any room for that sort of discussion in feminist circles? Or will they get shouted down and told that they are not feminist? I'm saddened to say my experience is that it has been the latter.

I would argue that modern women in the western world provide a fine example of a situation in which 'oppressors' have given up their power, largely as a result of reasonable debate. No doubt you disagree, but can you tell me what rights men have that women don't have?

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/09/2014 13:58

Oh yes, and they didn't actually find that the campus survey was only filled in by those who had a beef of some kind - they just assumed that was probably the case.

That's not a terribly persuasive article. It's just a lot of people saying things are 'likely' or unknown, or possible, to fit their anti-feminist agenda.

PetulaGordino · 10/09/2014 13:56

cordelia fine's proper academic rigour was dismissed by the OP anyway

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 10/09/2014 13:55

Right, Christina H-S argues, and cites other sources which argue, that the stats on women, pay and employment are wrong because 'precise figures do not exist' (though I presume we are to infer they would be lower?), on the basis that 'serious economists' do not 'believe' they do.

A man said 'we are talking' about fewer girls sold into sexual slavery and the number 'likely' includes a lot of boys, too. Nice. Specific.

550.00 women turn up in the ER not because of violence, but because of 'violence related' injuries. I don't quite get the distinction - would that be if your boyfriend threatened to hit you and you stepped back off a cliff or something?

There's a 'clear possibility' that a survey on violence on campus is only filled in by people who've encountered it. So yeah, I guess we should dismiss those whingers! Also the figures should be tweaked, because at the moment they count forced kissing or rape when the woman is drunk, and that skews the figures. I assume these things are to be re-cast as Just One Of Those Things?

And my favourite - 'the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time'. Aaaaah, I see. The women just choose bad jobs, even though they had every opportunity not to?

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