Why are feminists so threatened by the MRA movement?

Did you come on here to challenge your own opinion or to try to change ours?

You took a whole fucking paragraph to say "Some scientists think male and female brains are different due to socialisation, others think it is innate, I am inclined to agree with the latter." We are not politicians here, say what you actually mean. You won't hurt the poor womenz feelings. It is frustrating trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps waffling around and avoiding the questions.

Here's an idea for you. Let's get rid of the patriarchy and see how many of those issues still exist. Because women will be substantially better off once they are valued as more than the vessels of the children they have the potential to make and objects to be twirled on a pedestal. All of us have everything to gain by getting rid of it.

"I've heartily enjoyed this discussion"

I bet you have - it's been purely for your benefit and no one else's

(Apart perhaps from the coining of the phrase "mortifying dickhead", the memes and Inigo)

Gender stereotyping is fundamental to feminist criticism, you can't get away from that

The onus is not on me to seek out these "reasonable" forums. You're the one who says they exist, so you produce them. You have said yourself you avoid regular MRA forums, and one of the others you suggested has also proved itself inappropriate. You made snide remarks about me not "going out of my comfort zone" and posting on MRA sites (when I was talking about threats of violence) but have now admitted that you avoid them too.

If you really wanted MRAs and feminists to work together, you wouldn't be on a site where the oppressed group gather berating them for not campaigning on behalf of their oppressors. You would be putting your money where your mouth is and getting onto the MRA sites and trying to persuade them that they are the privileged group and more can be achieved if they acknowledge that

"Challenging" feminists is the easy option. Get out of your own comfort zone and challenge the ones with the power to do something about it

(In other words, be a feminist)

Young men's suicide rates are awful. Why do you think men commit suicide more in the under 35 age groups if it's not because of the unrealistic demands placed upon them by patriarchy? Patriarchy harms everyone, not just women. Why do you think more women attempt suicide? Why do you think that those attempted suicides don't pan out for women? Are we just crap at that too?

I have some expertise in this, so do tell me your thoughts.

You know, I feel so contrite now. This discussion has made me really challenge my values. I'm going to dedicate my life now to improving men's rights and I'm going to begin by mounting a Twitter fat-shaming campaign against men in the hope that it might save lives and improve their life-expectancy. Step away from that manly Yorkie Bar and steak you fat fuck bastards! Don't you want disgruntled care home staff to be wiping your slender arse when you're 103?!

Zazzles that is a brilliant list But may i add one.

Criticising and taking the piss and shouting nasty comments at women for being overweight and saying they need to excersise and then criticising and talking the piss and shouting at them when they are excersising.

Right, well first off, congratulations for actually saying something and making a point! Well done.

-Almost certainly due to the patriarchy, and the "boys will be boys" idea, boys are loud and a noxious, girls are quiet and well behaved. Girls toys for example, all aimed at decorating or accessorising. Quiet and obedient past times. Someone with wider knowledge than me will come and debunk that properly for you I'm sure.
-Most likely an extension of what I've just said above.
-Positive discrimination what?! What are you talking about? What on earth do women get positively discriminated for?
-Again, likely to be due to the pressure to succeed, be 'breadwinner', have beautiful wife and family to provide for. I would say that comes under the patriarchy umbrella, but like you say you would need to do more research.
-That is a medical fact. Does the NHS cut off medical treatment to men over a certain age? Does it offer substandard care because men aren't likely to live as long? Not oppression or discrimination there, you're just stating a fact. Please tell me if I've missed the point.

Even if boys do less well then girls at school and more women go to university, men accelerate beyond women in the world of work and earn more. So men achieve less academically and yet still attain more money and power professionally.

What about the unspoken positive discrimination that benefits men.

More women than men attempt suicide (I guess it's just another thing we're shit at).

Death rates - because men get to do all the fun stuff like have careers, drink, smoke and eat.

Anyway, women's rights do improve the lot of humanity. Consistent studies by the UN and children's charities have proved that when you educate women and economically empower them it is children who are lifted out of poverty and have better opportunities in life. An end to male violence would benefit men as much as women. Better employment rights would create fairer work environments for all and improve family life for men as well as women.

Okay, you've added a few more examples. And you say that we are "unwilling to accept the possibility of any explanation which does not fit [our] preconceptions."

What are your explanations for these issues, beyond our current societal construct (ie, patriarchy)?

And again, what do you expect women, who lack any real power across most spheres, to do about it?

Why are you not raising these issues with men? As in, raising the issues in a real "come on guys, this isn't right, what shall we do about it?" way rather than a "look at how feminists are screwing everything up and not caring about men or boys" way.

That Robert Webb article is great.

OP Could you please explain the point of the fat shaming week that an MRA group launched on Twitter just over a year ago? They were only shaming the women mind.

And how this helped women?

I've listed examples where I feel men suffer oppression, so I don't buy into the argument that men 'have all the rights'.

To be fair, the only examples you've listed are female-on-male violence not being taken seriously enough, men not being given enough credit for being caregivers, the old insurance chestnut, poor mental health care for men and men coming off worse in custody battles.

And you have repeatedly been given examples of how feminism is battling all of those things, albeit indirectly. But are any of those things actual, ongoing and pervasive oppression? And if so, who is doing the oppressing? Also, beyond what we're already doing, what would you like women to do about it? We've already acknowledged that these are problems. We synpathise, even if we can't do much about it ourselves.

So what is it you actually want from us?

As someone else asked, are you raising these issues with men's forums? You know, the people who actually have the power to effect any change?

But those examples aren't examples of oppression . They are examples of gender stereotypes not benefiting the entire population of men all the time. But it's not oppression.

Oppression is when the gender stereotype you are supposed to follow consistently puts you below the other gender in the hierarchy and that is then upheld by society.

Oppression is where all the wealth and power in society is with the other sex.

Oppression is where one sex is consistently violent to the other sex to the point where the other sex changes their behaviour and fears them.

Men as a class don't fear women being violent. You illustrated that with your third post. They are frightened of women laughing at them.

I am asking this again as no answer has been forthcoming. Why can you not link to sites where we can join with these MRA's who we can work with?

NormaStanleyFletcher

Please answer this

Can you ink me to a single MRA forum (or site with comments) where I can observe and engage with non tar brushed activists

Or this
Can you point us in the direction of a MRA website / resource / forum / group which you feel reflects and supports your feminist values?

" I tend to stay away from online forums which call themselves MRA forums, because I find that they are not at all true to what MRA is. "

So are you also posting over there telling them that they're wrong and should be focusing on men's violence against women?

F4J? That group run by the violent alcoholic who encourages other violent men to dress up in costumes and act violently? Oh yes, fabulous example of a non misogynistic MRA group. Please, tell me in what way forcing children to spend time with men who have been abusive to their mothers represents a step forward for equality?

N

Oh FFS! Why doesn't the NAACP campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't the RSPB campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't Stonewall campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't NUT campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't Save the Children campaign for all humanity? Yeah, Save the Effin' Children, those bastards! Being all divisive and only caring about fookin' children! Who cares about the adults? What about adult's rights, huh? Selfish, bigoted, uncaring bastards, Save the Fuckin' Children are!

Maybe when women are seen as human beings, feminists can start campaigning about all humanity.

OP, using the examples you've given us over the course of the thread, I can't see any which wouldn't be dealt with by dealing the sexism and inequality maintained by the patriarchy through feminism. I cannot think of an example of men's oppression that would not be 'solved' through feminism. Correct if me I am wrong.

If that is the case, why is there any need for MRAs in the first place? If the number kne priority is dealing with sexist oppression, then why not call themselves feminists? That is what feminism is for. Why would they call themselves and be part of a movement that appears to (and behaves like) antagonise feminists and feminism- when, if what you're saying is true, we are looking for the same outcome.

"I can honestly say that I have never heard of that site" Use your French dear.

Ha ha Ha, F4J.

We see you.