Scottish Referendum - Any Feminist Thoughts?

I think that's a totally reasonable wish. The SNP were active for a few decades to set this referendum into motion and devolution really helped. Maybe England should go federal?

tbh i think most of the rest of hte uk (including england, and including anywhere in london that isn't westminster) wishes it had the opporutnity to vote not to ruled from westminster!

Agree re. No and sentimentality. Wittering on about our shared history, inventions etc. I understand it is an effort to be positive rather than keeping on a negative message but I find it patronising.

People I know in Scotland are split fairly evenly Yes/No (as you would expect given the polls). Almost every Scottish person I know who now lives abroad/in rUK wants us to vote No. I wonder if this is to do with sentimentality for the homeland, not wanting things to change while you are away etc.

I am going to vote Yes. I would prefer to stay a part of the UK, IF the UK was a fairer place that wasn't penalising the weakest. I hope with Independence we could do a better job, but I know it is a risk. That is how unhappy I am with the status quo that I am willing to take the risk!

What I find really heartening, whatever the result, is how many newly registered voters there are and how engaged lots of people seem to be. Westminster elections often feel like there is no point voting as there is no real choice, all as bad as each other, while politicians blame low turnout on us for beng apathetic, rather than looking at themselves.

The article I linked to cited mn as it's main source.

I also think it's a complete mis-representation to portray 'yes' as a heart vote and 'no' as a head vote. Most of the pro-yes debate has been very hard-headed, about what makes a functional and successful society in the 21st century, and how the UK, with it's 18th-century parliament, is failing at that. Yes, there is a lot of aspiration but most of the sentimentality seems to be on the 'no' side (see, for example, the 'I love Scotland' and 'I love my family' campaigns 'no' have been running, and this bizarre obsession they have with the flag).

By the way, I don't think the reported female swing to yes is based on the MN poll! Most of the pollsters publish details about their results such as age, gender and political affiliation of those polled.

Women have been so visible in this referendum. With Women for Independence leading, women have been engaging at every level. There have been hundreds (thousands?) of meetings and debates in town halls all over Scotland with women very well represented - including several all-women panels. Sadly, this has been very poorly reflected in the media, who like to portray it as Salmond vs Darling, and every pro-yes person as a Salmond groupy, ignoring the depth and breadth of the political discussions that have been going on. Women for Independence have been constantly frustrated by media like the BBC having all-male panels and claiming they couldn't find any suitable women when there were a whole load ready and willing to participate. But the on-the-ground local participation has made a massive difference to women in Scotland (and men). It's really not just about one stupid advert (though I'm sure that helped!). Women are very visible in Scottish politics. Of the four main parties, two have female leaders and one a female deputy. As was mentioned earlier, the Scottish parliament is very family-friendly, both for those working there and for those who want to visit their MPs, attend debates, etc. The excellent free crèche was set up specifically to encourage female participation in politics, and it seems to be working.

I saw the poll results pre-debate.

that's a heartwarming image Super, and you're right about the portrayal

I see what you mean, PG. I think it's a shame the way it's been reported though, as though it's all fistfights and willywaving. The last debate I was at ended in declarations of friendship and hand-holding between the female participants.

The mumsnet poll was indeed taken pre-AS/AD webchat, but the results were only released after the debate.

lots of interesting links, thanks. like CKD i too would hope that a scandinavian approach would be the way forward in independence

when i say it's nothing to do with us, i don't mean that it's not interesting to me, just that there's no reason why women and feminists in scotland would want to put their energies into engaging in discussions with people outside the relevant area

i have seen women for independence events in my facebook feed as friends in scotland have signed up to them

[http://www.scottishwomensaid.org.uk/news-events/news/no-one-should-have-choose-between-their-vote-and-their-safety]] This shouldn't be necessary because no woman should live in fear but sadly it is. This campaign was useful as it enabled folk chapping on doors to explain that in some cases people can register to vote anonymously.
One thing that came up in a recent discussion, though, was that some women were scared of debt catching up with them from wonga or brighthouse - unfortunately that's not covered by the legislation.

I am confused. It is being reported here that the mumsnet poll was taken after the mumsnet debate, but unless I have missed a poll (I may well have!) then the results in the article were pre debate. I wouldn't be surprised if another poll on mn would show a no swing.

Either way, it seems that the mn poll is responsible for a lot of reporting showing women's views swinging to yes. And maybe not entirely accurately.

We've only had a few devolved powers for a short time but we already recognise pornography and prostitution as violence against women - makes campaigning a lot easier than in england and wales ime.
We've been looking at rape prosecution since our practices were impacted by the Cadder ruling but already juries are informed of rape myths during trials.
Lesley Riddoch and others are definitely advocating for a Nordic model - the Common Weal's the group who'd probably have most information on that, besides Blossom.
I've been really pleased with how things have gone since devolution but it's hard when so many laws like immigration (women on spousal visas having no recourse to public funds) aren't within our control.
But the atmosphere in the Scottish parliament is so much more women-friendly. We have a free creche so you can see your MSP. And it's brilliant - not a grey room with a box of dirty duplo. A proper fancy creche.

X post there.

I am in Scotland. I think if there's a movement by women towards Yes, it's partly down to Cat Boyd, her book, and the RIC. It's also partly down to Lesley Riddoch and her book, Blossom. It's got a lot to do with the hard work being carried out by Women for Independence, who set up stalls and cafes, go doorknocking and canvassing, and set up women-friendly debates the length and breadth of the country. If you don't identify as feminist, there will be some other relevant group willing to engage you in discussion, either a Yes "enter your town/geopolitical area", or an ethnic group (I've heard of English Scots, Asians, Africans and Poles for Yes, I'm certain there will be others.)

The strength of the Yes campaign is in its grassroots diversity; it's people talking to each other at bus stops, in the pub, at the school gate, at the office water cooler. I think women (and men, too) are simply more engaged in politics than I've ever seen before.

There's been a huge group called 'women for independence' going for years www.engender.org.uk/news/blog/guest-blog-women-for-independence-indyref-thursday-8/ www.womenforindependence.org/

Lesley Riddoch of Harpies and Quines wrote 'Blossom' which sets out possibilities after independence as well as a case for being self-governing. She's been campaigning and writing articles non-stop.

Talat Yaqoob is campaigning for Better Together, as are many Labour women.

There's plenty of women's voices being heard and here, it's not so much about Alex Salmond as the BBC would lead you to believe.
academic-report-indyref-bias-scottish-media-blackout-must

I found it interesting that when Sheila Jeffreys, a political scientist, was in Scotland, she was talking about the way small states don't tend to favour women. I hope that in Scotland things will be different and if the women who've been speaking out up to now are able to participate in policy decisions, I think we can have policies that work for women. But wherever you are, it's interesting to think about ideal structures of government.

I've always favoured smaller states as they can be more responsive to local needs and they're less likely to result in warmongering and colonisation. (in my opinion)

Plus in Scotland we have better political representation for women than in Westminster.

Cat Boyd made good points about the national identity that tends to be portrayed outside Scotland being 'braveheart'/fighting men etc.

i was feeling uncomfortable that the only contributions on this thread mostly were from people who were acknowledging that they weren't in scotland, so thanks for your post Super

inevitably the feminist and women's discussions around independence haven't really filtered down to other areas of the UK (and why should they - it's nothing to do with us, it is a discussion for scotland-based women and feminists to have)

For reference (insofar as the sexual identity of a politician is relevant), Ruth Davidson campaigned against equal marriage.
And the deputy head of the SNP (and next in line for leadership) is a woman. That's beside the point though. Margaret Thatcher was a woman. Right-wing groups are great with tokens. It's policies that matter.

Is anyone else on this thread in Scotland?

I am, have been involved in feminism-related and women-related discussions for years about independence, and I do think there are plenty of feminist thoughts on independence for Scotland.

Cay Boyd from radical indy recently spoke in Dundee about her book on a feminist perspective on pro-indy. It was a good discussion. Amina MWRC has been holding women-only events on it for ages. Most of those turn out to have women keener for independence than when they entered the room, even though the speakers and chair are balanced.

With Plan B, it would be dishonest for anyone pro-indy to say 'we will for sure do xyz when the UK government has refused to discuss it in advance. All we can do is talk about possibilities, with the knowledge that Scotland has plenty of natural resources and industry to enable us to have a working economy that will hopefully serve us well as a nation.

Welcome to FWR, isee!

Is there a difference between male animals and female animals that can't swim jumping into rivers?

I don't see why most women would vote for independence when they are far better off under a big welfare state with the benefits and the huge number of ''feminine'' jobs it provides. The only reason the vote is close now is because Salmond has promised (after finally realising that women will decide the vote, like in every election or referendum in the last 100 years) more handouts and freebies under an Edinburgh government.

Men pay the great majority of taxes and rule the competitive, cut-throat private sector while women benefit from the taxes paid by men and make up the vast majority of public sector employees. Much more money is spent on women since they use the NHS much more than the men , they retire earlier and die later so more pension and healthcare benefits, most do degrees that are not exactly valuable on the job market so they never pay back their student loans or help the economy grow, much more is spent on helping women with special programs or campaigns etc.

As for the risk taking factor, it probably makes sense that the sex that brings life into the world and nurtures it for years and has been doing it for eons would be less likely to engage in risky behavior. Same reason animals that can't swim don't go jumping into rivers.

Isn't it funny that the fate of union that shaped the history of the world in so many ways and was a bastion of patriarchy and ''machoism'' will be decided by stay at home and part time working mums? If yesterday's patriarchy was an english mastiff then its 21st century version is nothing but a neutered chihuahua.