how do i behave in a more feminist way towards myself?

I think most of us have been socialised to not think our opinions are worth expressing.

I was in a meeting today, and someone said she'd been advised by a couple of managers that when she's asked questions in all-hands meetings, she needs to consider the speakers might be tired after travelling, and her questions might be too harsh and testing when they're on the spot like that. I've been in some of those meetings, and she asks some great questions.

You will not be surprised to hear the people telling her this were men. Though we did also have an interesting discussion on modifying how you say things to consider your audience and cultural differences and understanding their point of view and things like that. I still think there's a lot of putting women in their place, though.

I am terrified of expressing opinions to anyone but my very closest friends. Even expressing an opinion anonymously on mn sends me into a cold sweat for days. I'd never thought of this as a feminist issue, rather a fault in me, but this thread is making me think maybe it is.

My director has forbidden me from saying sorry. I am getting better at not doing it, but it's not easy - not only am I female, but I am British, too.

I also suspect that some of the things I do - like all the women in STEM stuff I do at work - is in part because it is easier to try to improve things for other people than work on myself, which means part of me still feels guilty. The rational side of me knows this is mostly a pile of rot - but the emotional stuff, where my default position is that I am the one who hasn't got things right, that's been programmed into me since birth, and it's really hard to overcome that conditioning. (So that's another thing I can feel guilty about for not doing better at...)

I am fairly sure that few of my male colleagues will be beating themselves up over whether they do enough for other people, and don't question how their every interaction with other people to work out if they've been too demanding/unfair/inconsiderate/whatever. When I think about it abstractly like this, I think what a waste of energy! And then I'll probably feel guilty for wasting energy like that.

Thanks Brewster,the counselling/CBT is really helping,when before I was just masking it with AD's.
But it's going to take a while I think.
Little things like saying 'sorry' for things that are out of my control.I do it all the time,interestingly,there is an advert(think it's for shampoo?!?) that tackles this & how women are always saying sorry.Will look for it.

Sorry to hear you've had a tought life, Chickens. Having to go through what you been through will partly explain your low selfworth.

My life has been a breeze. Well, compared to some anyway. The only hardship I've got is that I've got a DS with Aspergers who relies on adults (me) to regulate his emotions. I'm intelligent, got a good DH, three loving DSs, enough money, lovely house, after being a SAHM I started afresh and I'm now doing a PhD, I have not been bullied or experienced any trauma of any kind, etc etc. And I'm still beating my self up for not being good enough, and for not being feminist enough as well. And then I'll beat myself up for beating myself up.

It's bloody hard to trying to be everything to everyone, keep a family running whilst also trying to get my own career off the ground etc. And then being a feminist and realising it is unfair that this is expected of women more than men, but not being able to shed the socialisation. Thinking that I should be able to. I've got everything going for me, after all. But I'm not. I feel too responsible for everybody else's well being.

i'm sort of hoping that as i get older i'll just start giving less of a shit

Believe me Petula, you will. I've had all the sort of issues you and other posters have mentioned. Now I am older (much) I don't give a damn.

After all, invisibility strikes women some time after the menopause and if you are invisible it doesn't matter what you look like, what you think, what you say or how you act. 'Cos they can't see you Actually, what it really means is that you obtain genuine confidence as you stop caring. It stills the inner voice no end.

Doesn't mean I go around upsetting people or dressing in a bin liner or anything. It just means that I accept that "good enough" is actually good enough.

So hang in there. Meanwhile until you reach the stage where you are truly confident and the inner voice is stilled, simply pretend and the pretence will eventually become reality.

I am currently having counselling,mainly to do with coping with my daughters disability and my Dads dementia,but interestingly,what has risen to the surface through all this is my terrible low self worth.
I am 43 now and it has crowded my life since I became a teenager,I was an only child,bullied at school,which in turn led to a couple of abusive relationships.I have also suffered from depression,much to do with my self esteem.
I will be reading this thread with interest,as I am determined not to let my daughter 'follow in my footsteps',I want her to grow up to be a confident,happy woman,but I feel society can over ride this sometimes and its a difficult fight.

Find a way round it

Now that is truely good advice. And you know what, I think that is what men tend to do. They don't punish themselves as women tend to do with confidence undermining thoughts, with too much self-reflection and pondering on their flaws and feel bad about themselves.

Could this be the secret to their seemingly unperturbed self confidence and entitlement that we tend to lack. (Obviously generalising here). I can't believe that men are not insecure as well, every now and then, but they find a way round it!

Thank you Petula for starting this thread. Pretty much every word written here resonates with me. I have also had long struggles with eating disorders and my inner monologue is vicious.

Re the guilt: I feel guilty for feeling happy (there are people starving you know!) and guilty for feeling sad (there are people starving you know!). So am completely stuck feeling guilty whatever mood I'm in!

I am really trying to address this now as I have a baby dd and don't want her to grow up like me. I am having cbt at the moment after a sever episode of depression and we are doing lots of work on compassion for myself (why do I cringe when I write that?? Part of the problem I suspect) and building self esteem. There is a book by Melanie Fennell (can't remember the title but sth like improve your self esteem) which I am liking.

Ah Petula good on you for looking up the book and ordering it from the library already. It shows that you are ready for change, and really willing to address the confidence thing. Once you start reading book, and decide that you like it, it is worthwhile buying a copy for yourself. It has so much wisdom in it, that I found I wanted it handy, even after I finished reading it long ago. I wanted it handy to read a chapter here and there every so often, to remind myself of the way I wanted to live my life after trauma, and to not fall into the traps that we are all too aware of, but perhaps have no understanding of how to change.

The book also has some very simple exercises which are essential for the personal change you are trying to achieve, and improving your confidence and self esteem. I urge you to do the exercises (they're not hard at all) while you are still reading the book, as it is the exercises (not the book itself, although very very good) which help you to change your mindset at the most fundamental level.

Find a way round it.

I love that, vezzie. It embodies self-forgiveness, self-acceptance. So important.

i did think i might deserve a "stop being so self-obsessed when women and children are being murdered" (but that thought process is probably part of the problem)

I do think that thought process is a big part of a lot of our problems. Telling ourselves we must not be sad because there are others in a worse position is like telling ourselves we shouldn't be happy because there are other people better off.

We are socially conditioned not to show sadness, and not event to FEEL sadness. I see children all the time being told they must not cry, must not be sad, everything is OK!

Then when we do find ourselves feelings sad, we reject it! We think: why do I feel that way? what is wrong with me? what it bad in my life? how can I fix it? And these thoughts spiral down... and pretty soon feel even worse.

Just feeling our (especially negative) feelings for as long as they last, and not trying to root them out and shoo them away, is something we are bad at.

I'm not sure how this helps OP but ... I think it fits in somewhere.

Something happened at work months ago that stayed with me. I was getting some informal ad hoc coaching from someone very senior who does not usually spend time with me. He responded to a presentation I gave by giving me some advice, and one of the things he said was

"Identify the barriers, and where they are external, identify those that are in your area of influence." so far, so standard.

"When you identify a barrier that is in yourself -" and he paused meaningfully and looked at me, and I expected to be told I would have to improve myself in order to remove whatever that barrier is - work harder in some way - change myself - get better - but the sentence continued, and he said this really clearly and forcefully so it stuck in my head, "Find a way round it."

That is so liberating! That is such a great way to think. I have been thinking a lot about this at work, that when things don't work first time, instead of thinking "I am not ready" "I am not good enough" "I shouldn't have tried this, after all I am a bit shit, have low stamina, am prone to illness, don't work as hard as I should" (etc etc etc all the crap) - instead of thinking how I don't deserve it because I am flawed, I think "find a way round it". I can only change so much of myself, but I can find a way round things that are not my natural skills

Such a forgiving, open, constructive, creative way to think

"For me, the big thing that changed my way of thinking was becoming very ill and believing I was going to die."

I am sorry to hear that this happened to you, Cailin.

I am not properly ill but a series of niggling, uncomfortable and inconvenient health issues + a sense of getting older has suddenly changed my perspective slightly. Very slightly; not enough. but it is a chink of a window into a different, warmer way of thinking.

This is a very good idea for a thread. it is a very clear articulation of some vague thoughts I had been having recently and have not been able to express like this.

This is an interesting topic which I saw hours ago and was only able to get to just now. As Cailin wrote:

For me, the big thing that changed my way of thinking was becoming very ill and believing I was going to die.

Unfortunately, I've been through that experience as well, and I don't recommend it either. And the thing is, going through a traumatic crisis doesn't guarantee that you will heal and gain the confidence (or whatever it is you are after) you desire. I have met many, many people who have been through things like divorce, death of a child/spouse/loved one, personal tragedy, etc etc, who haven't healed at all, and are just as 'broken' as they were before the trauma.

The root causes are of course in my upbringing

As I have mentioned in a couple of threads, I have a huge interest in psychology, and from a psychological view-point, this is the one thing you can influence and fix (but it is huge thing). And it takes much, much more than just a number of counseling sessions and reading some books (this is just a starting point). Ya' know the effort that you put into a job? It takes that sort of analysis, planning, implementing, measuring your results, ruminating on where you can do better, and then starting the whole shebang all over again.

There are a some books which can really, really help people who want to improve their confidence, change themselves for the better, and reset how they think about themselves. The Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden is pretty much the seminal book on the subject. It will help with the whole upbringing thing too, and in conjunction counseling and other stuff, it basically saved my life .

Take care, Petula.

Marking place.

Marking place. I am a horrible people pleaser, apologist and yes-woman. I would never expect anyone else to act like I did, but when it's me I always assume everything is a result of my failure to do something. No idea where to start with that either.

Hope you are a OK Petula .

I try to catch the thoughts, if i can, and ask myself if I'd say that about a sister, a friend, another woman.

DH once said something that stuck with me when I was berating myself for something - "If anyone else talked about you the way you talk about yourself, I'd be really cross with them. You're my wife and it's horrible hearing those things said about you."

I don't believe that "women are their own worst enemies" but I do believe it's possible for me to be my own worst enemy sometimes; I strive to be my own best friend instead.