Right - Primary aged girls and Maths

In my year 6 class, the top 3 in maths were all girls (we were very competitive.. I don't even remember who was next down because we were so far ahead). In my case my mum was always good at maths, and passed on that assumption to me (I have a foggy memory of her showing me algebra on a blackboard before I even started school - because she wrote her 'x's differently to how she was teaching me).

I've always preferred exams to coursework because of the waffliness of maths coursework, just to get an answer everyone knows anyway (which is odd, because in my work I really enjoy investigations and problem-solving) - although I do absolutely understand now that the journey is as important as the destination.

I actually found that once English became more about creativity and less about getting it write I enjoyed it a lot less too - I'm very literal minded though (as is my son - although he's only just 4 and they probably all are at that age)

I watched a man bugger up a "male" task (reversing a trailer) the other day whilst other people were watching. He shrugged, had another go, and got it right. I thought to myself, hmm I would have gone bright red and handed the keys to the first of the kindly menfolk who said "Would you like me to do it for you love?" I'm wondering whether this relates to the difference in attitudes to the "have a bash even if it takes lots of goes to get the solution" maths tasks. I also wonder if there have been any studies done into time taken to interruption of each sex with "let me help you love" with little children bashing shapes into holes with toy hammers; and if there's any difference in literary tasks such as time taken to butt in when the child is learning to pronounce a word.

Interestingly, our family is very heavily heavily into literacy, science and maths, so I think all the kids get from DH and I a solid base of these things are all for you.

But, on the other side DS has never been as interested in books as DD1 was. Turns out DD has some ASD symptoms and DS has hearing problems. Both of which would have been so easy to ignore and say 'oh it's a boy/girl' thing.

I would love to do research on the impact of stereotypes on missed diagnosis and whether social moderation to make a child fit their labels impacts on how they present.

In my industry there is a job which is v v maths and v v well paid and I've not counted but my feel is that at graduate entry level girls prob outnumber boys. In my company anyway. And on my floor of the office So not a hugely scientific study. But. I suspect that 20 years + ago that job would have been v v v male, what with them having the logical brains & all.

The girls seemed to be more concerned with getting it right whereas the boys actually found the process rewarding

Yes, and this is true across the board - girls are conditioned to think they must get things right, and that is more important than enjoying the subject, or than being subversive/original.

Boys, meanwhile, lose out because they are often conditioned to think that they should always question and focus on enjoyment, and shouldn't be conscientious about accuracy.

Making gendered distinctions harms both groups, obviously.

I taught a Year 1 and 2 and I'd say there was no difference. However, I always had a couple of boys who really struggled with analogue time but were great at all other maths topics.
My daughter is really good at maths but my son seems to be better at problem solving and logic.

I don't really know (this was the only maths I did with them), I presume a mixture of many things including confidence, natural ability, determination, competitiveness.
The girls seemed to be more concerned with getting it right whereas the boys actually found the process rewarding. I think they weren't used to getting things wrong and didn't like it, it goes against how they (and others) see themselves and perhaps makes them question their ability.

Teaching according to 'learning styles' is unevidenced nonsense and schools really shouldn't be referring to them at all any more.

What seven says, absolutely.

Incidentally, the idea that boys struggle with literacy (whether for bogus 'wiring' reasons or genuine social reasons) and that therefore this is the same as girls struggling with maths is not borne out in academia.

In the UK, around 7% of professors of maths are women. Whereas, I believe women are outnumbered by men as professors of English, and certainly at prestigious universities it is often the case - these days Cambridge has 13 male profs and just one woman.

I mention this because the idea that boys and girls have 'hard wired' differences in skills somehow falls apart when you look at kinds of jobs those skills supposedly predict. I am sure that similar stories would apply to business, or politics, or other areas - I just mention academia because I know of it.

I've got 2 girls, Dd1 loves maths and DD2 hates it. DD2 isn't bad at maths, she is level 5 at end of year 5, but she seems to struggle with lack of confidence, and thinks she can't do it. I liked maths at school myself, and did physics at uni.
DD1 got a level 6 at end of year 6, as did quite a few other girls, I think there were as many girls as boys in the group that did level 6.

I don't know if this would apply to younger primary school aged girls, but I have noticed that some girls do tend to be more afraid to make mistakes than boys. When there's something to be figured out, boys are more likely to plough on. Their approach isn't always correct, but they're at least making an attempt which can be refined. Girls are more prone to sitting and staring at each other, not being willing to be the first to try and fail. Some are really bad at talking themselves out of something that they've already demonstrated capability in.

I think a cultural collective lack of confidence would play a big role - and go part way to explain why the problem of girls underachieving in maths is greater in some schools than others. I caught sight of something, not so long back (though didn't read in detail and I've had a sleep since seeing it) that learning style might be a better way of grouping than "ability" for some subjects and I suspect that maths is a prime candidate.

Interesting reading some of the recent posts next to each other.

Two comments that girls are poor at tasks which are not clearly defined etc. Then one about cowmop's girl enjoying English precisely because it is more open-ended.

These don't meet do they? If girls want clearly defined short tasks (gather the ticks) then that does not meet things which are typical in more "girls" topics like English, History (?) which are very open ended, very imaginative, very "thinking outside the box" and so on.

Not sure how those things tie up, anyone got any ideas?

RE: Boys and literacy -- interestingly, DS won a county-wide story-writing prize in yr 6. When he went up for the prize, the organisers were quite obviously startled that he was a boy. He has a unisex name when shortened.

I did wonder if they would have graded it differently if they'd known.

Sadly DD is stereotype personified when it comes to maths. I have maths at A-level, both her aunts have maths at degree level, and her cousin is a bit of a mathmo star, but poor old DD still does the rabbit-in-headlights thing unless it's cash in which case she's right onto it.

Sorry, I just realised that I posted a very ambiguous statement and then ran off to settle a crying baby!

I meant that I hadn't seen differences at reception level. What I have definitely seen though is lots of women saying things like "ooh, she's like me, I'm rubbish at maths". Which must send a message. They don't seem to compare themselves to their sons in the same way. Only anecdata, but I'd be interested to know if there is something there. I do try and actively combat this for DD by telling her how much both her Dad and I loved maths at school and how it was my favourite A level subject.

I think it's the Cordelia Fine book which has some stuff about the effect of having to write your sex on the top of a maths test. It would also have some general reading around the subject of hardwiring/conditioning if you are interested.

seven sorry to wade in but I am really interested to know what the noticing things that reinforce what you think thing is... If you happen to remember. Is it like wanting to be pregnant and suddenly noticing millions of bumps?

If your colleague believes that boys and girls are wired differently for maths and has taught this class before, then that certainly could have had an influence, especially if that belief is shared with other teachers across the school. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'd be interested in the data across the years and whether this is a theme. Boys do outperform girls in maths at KS2, but not by that much that all your top students should be boys.
We seem to have the same problem with our feeder primary. Boys come in having way outperformed the girls at KS2 and this then follows them all the way up the school. This then affects how many take maths and further maths A-level, which affects career prospects and earning potential. Girls get nearly as many A*/A grades at GCSE as boys nationally, but not in my school. However, as they don't do as well at KS2, they still meet their targets.

I would definitely be examining the culture at your school as it is something that you could possibly challenge.

That is interesting, CatKisser. You mention that your school is in an affluent rural area - dds' is very socially mixed in a town with a seasonal economy. I wonder how that might influence things.

Dd1's confidence in maths was very low right up until this year, when she suddenly realised she could do it and her progress sped up no end - I wonder if this 'lightbulb moment' might happen a little later on for some girls? (She's about to go into Y6.)

Dd1 is just going into year 6, her problem with maths is she panics. She is capable and is working at end of yr 7 level, but constantly says she can't do it and is rubbish at it. To the point where you'll ask her to write 600 and she is questioning how many zeroes! Her teacher even said to me "you say the word test and see her go visibly pale."

I think in her case it is the black and white of it that panics her. She enjoys English as there is so much more give and take to it in her view, but sees maths as a right or a wrong and as a bossy 10 year old, boy, does she not like being wrong!

BuskersDog. I can certainly relate to that, even as a grown up. I think it has to do with having the confidence to think outside the box, and knowing that it is ok to screw up.

Why do think there was that difference,buskers?

Definitely agree with your second point, I did an enrichment group with the higher achieving children last year, lots of problem solving, logic, puzzles etc. Nearly all the boys embraced the challenge, trying to work out what they needed to do and then going on to try and find the answers, having another go when they were wrong. Most of the girls didn't like not knowing the way to solve them and having to think for themselves whereas if I had given them a page of sums to answer they would have been perfectly happy, they don't like not getting things right and complained it was too hard without really trying.

There's been loads of research on this. Basically it comes down to self efficacy - girls are told maths is not for them, and they lose confidence. Similar happens with boys and writing/reading.

Well, top tables for maths in my dds' school are 50/50 boys and girls.

For literacy, however, they are ALL girls.