Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

318 replies

CKDexterHaven · 25/08/2014 18:54

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

OP posts:
FreudiansSlipper · 26/08/2014 00:14

But if you are harmed why would another client not want you to report it Confused or is them getting a service more important than your safety

I do lot want to love in a society where it it ok for men to pay a women for their own needs, I want it to change and it can but rather than blame those working involved I want those men to deal with the consequences if their actions

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 00:13

I can't stop women being abused in the industry. Legalise it, make it safer and maybe things might get better for those abused. And wasn't she a street worker? I can totally see how that would have been dangerous and exploitative.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:11

knee, to my mind, she is promoting harm to others.

I see you disagree, and of course that is your right.

I'll leave you to it, since it's late, but understand it is a very hard and upsetting topic for all. Perhaps if migsy hadn't begun by talking about 'happy' prostitutes it would have been easier not to think she was talking about 'happy' prostitutes? Just a thought.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:09

knee - no, it isn't. I apologize if my posts were somehow unclear, but that's not actually what I said.

KneeQuestion · 26/08/2014 00:09

but how could I morally accept you promoting harm to someone else just to keep yourself happy? I couldn't. It's not ok

She isn't promoting harm to others, she seems to be saying that she can only be responsible for herself and her own issues.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:08

How do you know it can?

Moran doesn't think so.

Why is your voice more important than hers? You are ok with it - she isn't.

Again, this is saying that the voices of those who profit are more important than those of those abused. Sad

Appallingly exploitative.

I cannot see how it is ok to place 'losing trade' on a par with the suffering of someone who has been repeatedly raped.

KneeQuestion · 26/08/2014 00:07

Calling migsy selfish etc, is going beyond just prioritizing those who are suffering most though, you are placing blame for their predicament at her door.

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 00:07

Yeah prostitution can be made safer. I commented loads on another post on here. We should be allowed to work together, that should be legal imo. If the Nordic model was brought in I'd be even less likely to report criminal stuff that's happened to me, I'd end up losing trade as it'd be on par with outing clients.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:05

migsy - I never said that, did I?

I don't know how many women are abused. I said that even if it's just one woman, it's too many.

I do think it's shit and horrible you have your own issues - but how could I morally accept you promoting harm to someone else just to keep yourself happy? I couldn't. It's not ok.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:04

knee - no, you misunderstood me. I think you missed my earlier post.

I don't categorize like that at all.

I just prioritize most the people who are suffering most. I don't treat them as liars, unlike this poster.

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 00:03

I'm not more important but at the end of the day I have my own issues to deal with. If you want to believe most women in this industry are abused well then fine, that's up to you.

FreudiansSlipper · 26/08/2014 00:02

Really can prostitution ever be safe?

It can not be by it's very nature but we do need to protect those involved and support women getting away from it. it is not going to go away though I would quite happily see us follow what Sweden has done and prosecute men

KneeQuestion · 26/08/2014 00:02

I support women who tell me what they were forced into - not women who tell me about their 'choice' and insist those 'choices' and 'happy' experiences should make it ok for others to be raped

She isn't saying that though, that is your take on it, because you seem to categorise women who are prostitutes into either victims, or selfish colluders.

At some point, those victims were selfish colluders too, yes?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/08/2014 00:00

And btw, I have to point out, love, it's not against your human rights that you can't be paid money for anything you fancy doing.

I can't either. It's like, well tough.

Except, it's not. It's normal life.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2014 23:59

Well, up to your conscience.

I don't support your 'right as a human being' because I am busy with the conflicting 'rights of human beings' who, unlike you, are not happy and ok. They're raped and abused.

Why do you feel you're more important than them?

IMO, the people who are suffering most are most important, and I will always prioritize them over someone else who is content.

FreudiansSlipper · 25/08/2014 23:58

Where I have worked in a few places men talked openly about using prostitutes and going to strip bars and in disgusting detail

Yes it was a misogynist environment as most male orientated surprisingly business are Hmm were all men doing so not but sadly many were

migsymoo · 25/08/2014 23:56

How can I ever agree with anti prostitution anyone!? And you'd support me if I told you I was forced to do this? Why can't you just support my right as a human being to be able to make my own choices and be safe.

All areas of the industry should be legal and made safer for everyone involved. Maybe you should support that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2014 23:52

migsy - you never said it was ok for anyone to be abused?

Ok then, look forward to you admitting that the anti-prostitution survivors are right.

Anything else is placing your experience above theirs - marginalizing and legitimizing their abuse.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2014 23:50

But are you willing to live the life of those abused women?

Bollocks am I jumping to conclusions.

I support women who tell me what they were forced into - not women who tell me about their 'choice' and insist those 'choices' and 'happy' experiences should make it ok for others to be raped.

migsymoo · 25/08/2014 23:49

And I never said it's ok for anyone to be abused!

blueshoes · 25/08/2014 23:49

Seven: "A company a friend worked at held a sales people well done type even where there were prostitutes on tap. She sent me a link. It wasn't in the UK, but was the same company. the prostitutes had arm-bands with classifications and the sales people could only use ones up to a certain arm-band level."

Was the company Munich Re?

migsymoo · 25/08/2014 23:48

Unless you are willing to live my life for me and pay my bills then I will always support my choices. There are many women doing this job, do you expect us all to go on benefits? Or just get another job?

I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions just based on a few comments that I've made.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2014 23:47

viv - not what I said.

Women aren't being selfish to make a difficult choice.

Anyone who say, as this poster does, that they doubt the story of a survivor of prostitution, or they place their lack of suffering as more important than someone else's suffering, is selfish, though.

It's basic, isn't it? If you are happy to do something, and someone else has been raped and abused doing it, you don't get to stamp all over their experience by saying you were happy so it's ok for them to be abused.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2014 23:45

Oh, 'a lot of doubt', is there?

You mean you don't believe an abused woman?

Sorry, but MN backs 'We Believe You'. I've met her. She is telling the truth.

If you claim you're ok with it, you are saying you're not suffering what she has, but somehow you think it's ok to insist your choice matters more than her suffering.

That's inexcusable and selfish.

Viviennemary · 25/08/2014 23:44

I don't see why women are being selfish if they choose to be prostitutes. It's a different thing altogether when women are forced or coerced into it. I can't see that it will ever end completely. And what about male escorts. I know there are as many of them but they do exist.