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Original poster

Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

318 replies

CKDexterHaven · 25/08/2014 18:54

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

OP posts:
Original poster
CKDexterHaven · 26/08/2014 02:49

In the case of porn I think it is pretty common. In the case of prostitution I don't think they are 'everywhere among us' but I think it is a lot, lot more common than we imagine. I'm not trying to scaremonger but I'm just tired of the pro-porn people arguing 'That kind of porn is really rare. You're wrong to frame your argument around the kind of porn that only a few men want to watch', when it is now the mainstream. In the same way I don't think we can do anything to challenge prostitution without accepting how normalised it has become and it isn't some fringe activity taboo to all but a few men.

OP posts:
BOFster · 26/08/2014 02:38

Honestly, neither most anecdotal experience (which you can take or leave as authentic-yet-dismissed testimony of women it affects, or decide to go for the Not-My-Nigel stuff and disbelieve), nor any of the research which attempts to be objective, which supports your view that THEY ARE EVERYWHERE AMONG US.

They might be hard to spot, and they might not be wearing dirty macs, but a) if you sincerely believe your significant other would have no truck with this stuff, or b) you had no idea but subsequently found out you misjudged the guy, it is nobody's fault but the man's who does it.

There is nothing kind or genuinely supportive of women to attempt to command that they mistrust their own judgement, or blame them if they get it wrong. It's pure scaremongering, and pretty disrespectful.

King1982 · 26/08/2014 02:34

What is 'extreme' or unextreme porn?

Original poster
CKDexterHaven · 26/08/2014 02:32

And isn't this the reason why writers such as Gail Dines and Andrea Dworkin are routinely vilified even among feminists because they force women to look at uncomfortable truths about men?

OP posts:
Original poster
CKDexterHaven · 26/08/2014 02:30

BOFSter

So you think gonzo porn isn't watched by nice Nigels and really is niche and marginal and atypical? If men don't watch this stuff why is there a huge market for it and why is that market being pushed into becoming more and more extreme? Is it possible that a product only consumed by a fringe element of men would become the mainstream in the market and the top-selling products would only be bought by an group of outliers?

OP posts:
Original poster
CKDexterHaven · 26/08/2014 02:19

No, I definitely don't think men use prostitutes because they are neglected or ignored by other women. I think men who use prostitutes are rapists with wallets instead of knives. I think it is a hate thing rather than a sex thing. I just think that women have massive, massive cognitive dissonance about the numbers of men and the kinds of men using prostitutes.

If you want to challenge the idea of men going on stag parties to use prostitutes in Thailand or Prague you get accused of making massive, nasty assumptions about men who go to these places. In the same way, if you want to argue against porn you get shouted down for even suggesting that 'everyday' men watch the stuff which is basically extreme filmed abuse because the nice men we know would never watch that kind of stuff, even though the figures would suggest otherwise.

OP posts:
BOFster · 26/08/2014 02:17

Wow, cranking it up now, aren't you?

Original poster
CKDexterHaven · 26/08/2014 02:06

I have also been on other threads/sites discussing the kind of extreme porn that has now become mainstream. I've been listening to people like Gail Dines and Catherine MacKinnon who've done the research on how this kind of porn is now the most downloaded and viewed kind of porn but if you say this to the women defending porn and calling it harmless you get completely shouted down. Even though the industry websites themselves show that extreme porn is now the mainstream you get told that it is niche, a minority interest, not really representative of porn and definitely not the sort that my nice Nigel watches. Gail Dines demonstrates that there is a difference in the kind of hardcore porn men watch with their partners and the porn they watch on their own. But is it cognitive dissonance again? If women don't think nice Nigels are watching it, who do they think is watching it? I'm really tired of being told by other women that this kind of porn is rare and only viewed by weirdos.

OP posts:
capant · 26/08/2014 01:19

migsymoo - You would be better linking in with SPACE International and Rachel Moran.

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 01:19

And I've never been shouty or mega pro prostitution, in every thread I've just told the truth and reiterated the need for more safety in the industry.

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 01:18

No I've never heard of the sex workers open university. But I'm off to have a Google now.

I just post on subjects I feel passionately about and gardening isn't one of them.

IPityThePontipines · 26/08/2014 01:16

Not sure about this comment:

but I am also certain that migsy has been on other threads, isn't in a great situation and would like to exit.

There is also another poster with quite a similar name (who has a "sex worker" blog elsewhere) and just comes onto any thread of this topic to shout at us.

Back to the OP, it never ceases to amaze me that in a industry that is completely driven by male demand, men are so frequently rendered invisible.

Men using prostitution is so often painted as the fault of wives/partners, violence against prostituted women is somehow the fault of feminists, now according to the OP, women are now somehow in denial of men using prostitutes - as if these poor, sorry, men are obviously in need and somehow neglected and ignored by women. Hmm

capant · 26/08/2014 01:14

Migsy, are you by any chance the "sex worker" who wrote that blog post about not enjoying "sex work", but being involved in "sex work" organisations? If memory serves me right the Sex Workers Open University?

AnyFucker · 26/08/2014 01:11

Yes, we have chatted on several occasions before, Migsy

Strangely though, never on "gardening" or "politics" or "the litter tray" or "baby names" or "style and beauty" or any other of the delights that MN can offer on a sleepless night

did someone alert you to this this thread, Migsy and if they did would you admit to it ?

BOFster · 26/08/2014 01:11

*the thin end of the wedge (correcting typo)

BOFster · 26/08/2014 01:10

To be practical about it for feminists, I would venture that the small but significant minority of men who do this are the the end of a wedge of male entitlement. And that is certainly something we can make a difference to, in terms of what we will tolerate in our personal relationships, and how we bring up our sons.

None of that means we are responsible for policing it, but if you don't want to be a bystander, I think that as women, that is how we can make a difference if we don't want to feel powerless.

capant · 26/08/2014 01:08

And how many men are going to admit it if they did have sex with a prostituted woman as a young man, and regret it now?

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 01:07

AF I am more of a lurker on here but do post occasionally. Plus I can't sleep so I'm on here.

Yes there are times when I feel like I want to leave but I still want the laws changed in support of our safety, not to criminalise the clients.

BOFster · 26/08/2014 01:05

None of the research suggests a "high percentage", thankfully. But enough of one to maintain this despicable abuse of women, which has to stop.

capant · 26/08/2014 01:00

I suspect a high percentage of men have used prostituted women once. Either having sex, or going to a sex show in places like Amsterdam. The numbers going regularly will be much lower.

Middle class and upper class men are more likely to have affairs than working class men. The theory is that is because of access to money, opportunities to be away from home with a plausible excuse. I suspect the same is true for prostitution. If you travel for work and have a bit of money, there is plenty of opportunity to use prostituted women and get away with it.

capant · 26/08/2014 00:56

I have seen migsy in other threads saying she wishes she could get out.

It is not the fault of prostituted women that the sex industry exists, and many when in it, do justify it. Because psychologically you have to have a way of coping with your life as it is.

AnyFucker · 26/08/2014 00:55

I predict a few more keyword warriors will rock up before the sun is up

AnyFucker · 26/08/2014 00:54

Gosh, migsy however did you stumble across this thread ?

it's a keyword kinda thing, this thread is

rosabud · 26/08/2014 00:31

I think I get what you are saying CK and I don't think you mean what you are saying in a victim-blamey kind of way. But it does make me feel a bit like a blamed victim. I've had relationships where, with hindsight, I can see that I was being "misled." I really did think that stag nights in Amsterdam were about excessive drinking and that, although Amsterdam is famous for being a red light district, most of the "nice" men I knew weren't going for that. I was probably wrong. So, yes, I was in denial. I have been in denial about a lot of male behaviour over the years, I now realize. The kind of victim-blamers that AnyFucker is describing would be laughing in glee at me and shouting, "I told you so!!" In contrast, I sense that CK's emotion is frustration and outrage on the behalf of women who have been in denial. I feel the outrage but I also feel the shame at my own credulity.

migsymoo · 26/08/2014 00:20

Isn't that like saying women aren't as responsible as men for their own actions?

This debate is one that will rage forever, i don't have an answer to suit everyone but the safety issue is one that needs to be solved now!