Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

I get so angry when people say that prostitution is rape and clients are rapists. I've been raped and the two are very different. I consent to have sex with them, whether I like them or not. So it's definitely not rape.

And no I'm not a "happy hooker" but I understand it was my choice to do this job. No one forced me.

That's what this board is for

AF, that wasn't my intention. Obviously women can choose to have sex for pleasure if there is a level playing field - one night stands, casual relationships, long term commitments etc. But when it isn't level, isn't there exploitation at some point? Is there a scale of exploitation, with prostituted women at one extreme, and a unpaid stay-at-home wife at the other (because both are members of the same unequal society)? Or is it all the same thing? I am trying to get this clear in my own head.

I maintained that for adult women, it could be the least awful of an extremely limited set of options

I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but are you saying you think prostitution could be the least awful option?

I would say that maybe, in a country with no welfare state, where destitution is a real possibility, then maybe yes.

But in the UK?

Obviously when external influence is involved [coercion etc] then, that is different, but in that situation, it wouldn't be an 'option', as there isn't generally a choice.

Aside from situations where women do this to fund a drug habit, there is always another option.

I see what you are trying to say, Curwen and it is a valid radical point.

However, in the context of individual relationships I am uncomfortable with this idea because it infers women are the "gatekeepers" of sex and could never be expected to have sex for their own pleasure.

What I am clumsily trying to say is that when the balance of power is so loaded in favour of men, especially financial power, I am wondering how women can ever truly consent. Can consent exist in an unequal relationship? It was just an extension of the OP's point about exploitation.

No, prostitution is never not abusive.

To add, it isn't the case that one day a person is young enough that it is wrong for them to be used for sex and the next day they are old enough that it is suddenly ok. No matter what age a person is, their body is not a commodity to be sold for use to others.

"I do think women are very much in denial about what men are like, but only because it is a survival mechanism"

This! When women do stick their heads above the parapet they get them blown off! I've lost count of how many times I've been in conversation (especially when younger) with male work colleagues and had to keep my views to myself because I risked losing my status as the "cool girl". We all have to laugh along, pretend it's no big deal and accept the twisted warped result of so called post - feminism: that it's empowering, that it's all about freedom of choice.

What's missing is a discussion on how men who use prostitutes can do so knowing that those women wouldn't be having sex with them if they weren't giving them money. It's weird and creepy. I would feel ashamed to have sex with someone who didn't really want to.

Migsy, without wishing to be antagonistic, how do you feel about the fact that you are part of an industry that perpetuates deceit and infidelity. I doubt those "normal" men who are your clients have told their wives what they are doing and if they have I'm sure the wives would rather they didn't. I'd be really interested in your answer.

Of corse it is child abuse. The discussion was is prostitution ever not abusive ?

No, but even if they were getting the money, and earning millions, they are still being used as a wank rag by a penis-faced arsemonkeys who don't deserve to live.

What are you driving at, Curwen? Is this going to tie back in with your "class of women" that date/have sex with rich ugly men point?

Any situation where a woman consents to sex for any reason other than that she actually wants that sex is rape. Any man who takes advantage of the fact that a woman he is with is saying yes to sex because she feels she has no other choice, is a rapist.

Curwen, I would much rather examine the male behaviour that enables women being seen as belonging to different "classes" or "groups" or whatever you want to call it

Nobody talks about that much do they (apart from feminsists of course)

Yours is the logical conclusion from the arguments presented here, Cailin. Given that the vast majority of financial power is in the hands of men all over the world, the vast majority of women must be beholden to men financially. Very few women are truly in a position whereby the can have a sexual relationship on an equal footing. Is this tantamount to rape within a relationship?

The fact that the term "child prostitution" even exists boggles me. It implies that those children are working, when in fact they are being abused. The same goes for "child porn" - in fact the term is "images of child sexual abuse."

This is really interesting. We recently had this conversation at work ( in the context of child prostitution) I maintained that for adult women, it could be the least awful of an extremely limited set of options.

I would group those women with all other women, women who live in a world where they are still so lacking in value as human beings that man will have sex with them knowing they don't want it. The fact that some women benefit in a monetary way from that doesn't change the fundamental fact that some men are happy to have sex with women who don't want sex with them. Whatever the reason the woman is having that unwanted sex - be it for money, to avoid sulking, or because there's a knife at her throat - the fact of the matter is the man is getting pleasure and enjoyment out of raping someone.

The class of coerced women who are accepting financial reward in exchange for sexual favours. Sex that they would not be interested in unless there was a financial exchange. The class that prostituted women belong to. Maybe 'class' was the wrong word. Would group be better, or collective?

I get what you're saying CK and I agree to a certain extent. I do think women are very much in denial about what men are like, but only because it is a survival mechanism. If women were to openly acknowledge the extent of men's privilege and the myriad ways in which they take advantage of that, including prostitution, it would make it very hard to function in the world we live in. As far as I know, my DH doesn't watch any porn and has never visited a prostitute, but I am very aware that even though he is easily the kindest, warmest, most loving man I have ever met, he still has shown through his actions that he has in the past, and still does to a certain extent, consider women to be less important than him. If a man with a stable, good upbringing, no criminal tendencies, a good dad with a good job can have that attitude (and he is addressing it now, to his great credit) then I can see how so many men that are also upstanding members of the community, men whose wives trust them and believe they would "never do such a thing" are kidding themselves.

Prostitution is a business that generates many millions of pounds. It is not funded by a small group of lowlifes who can't get a real woman. It's sustained by "normal" men whose wives, sisters, mums and friends will never know what they really get up to.

Though it is very starkly put I do think there is some truth in your idea that on some level many women see prostitutes as not quite the same as them and somehow deserving of the treatment they are given.

If you are ok with prostitution then you absolutely must be ok with suggesting it to your daughter as a valid career option.
If you are ok with other people's daughters being prostitutes, but not your own, then have a long think about why that might be, and what that says about your attitude.

Curwen, what "class" is that then ?