5 questions for people who advocate legal prostitution

I applies for misquoting you Margaret .

However I don't agree with your generalisation about men's attitude to sex .

If it's all about risk of pregnancy, what about women who have no risk of pregnancy eg post menopausal women, women who are already pregnant, those who cannot conceive because they have been sterilised or are infertile, women who have sex with women . Do they all see sex as a recreational activity in the same way as men do ?

I take it from the context that you mean ONLY a recreational activity , not that only men " enjoy" sex and that women do not .

DWH It's so hard not to interpret your position as disingenuous - you talk about protecting women, but in practice you just want to legitimise their abuse. Funny how all your solutions require nothing of the men involved except they can rest easier in their bed at night.

I really can't agree with your assessment that men view sex as recreational, JM. I personally know many men who are able to cognisise their relationships with those they have sex with beyond the functional, and interpret the consequences and risks as elements they share responsibility for. You position is so biologically reductive.

If you have to coerce someone into consenting, or pay them to consent, it's not consent to right-minded people.

Not many people consent to work for free that I know of, why is sex a special case? No money must change hands? Sex cant be 'work' and must always be mutually desired otherwise its tainted? A sex worker should be capable of telling the difference between a john and a rapist, what does that spin on except consent and validity of recognising it? Look, its not meaningful consent to me either but for entirely different reasons than devaluing the authority of the sex worker to consent. I don't feel I have the moral authority to lay that on an uncoerced worker if they are a fully consenting adult making their own choices, be they hard, poor or difficult ones.

Consent is an extremely troubling concept.

If you have to coerce someone into consenting, or pay them to consent, it's not consent to right-minded people.

But it clearly is consent to many, many people. i.e. men.

I don't think we do differ, Kristina.

I think men who pay for sex are rapists who use wallets instead of knives. Ergo: it is about power and abuse.

I said men view sex (not with a prostitute; just sex, full stop) as a recreational activity - you've vastly misquoted me above! And punters just extend that notion in their own heads.

They don't see (or care) what I see, i.e. that they're rapists.

Child abuse and human trafficking isn't going away either. No matter what I think of it . But this doesn't mean it should be legalised.

Those are violations of rights and I would think that prostitution of under-age trafficked girls is particularly a problem in countries where prostitution is either illegal or legal but unregulated.

Well I guess that's where we differ, Margaret . Because you see men using prostituted women as being about recreational sex. I don't. I think it's about power and abuse

I would love to think it was possible for prostitution to be made illegal, but I don't see how it will ever be eradicated.

Sex genuinely is a recreational activity for men, in every sense of the notion. It's not for women because it carries the potentially extremely far-reaching ramifications of producing a child. The playing field couldn't be less level, and that's never going to change.

Pregnancy and its far-reaching ramifications is simply is not something men - especially punters - need worry their little heads about. So certain men will always avail of their services.

They don't see what I, and presumably other feminists, see - that they're buying someone's consent, who would otherwise not be in the slightest bit willing to give it, i.e. they're essentially raping someone.

They seem themselves as indulging in a fair exchange.

No matter how much of a sea change there is in prostitute-user's attitudes, sex, for them, is nothing more or less than an enjoyable pass-time, that they see plenty of women willing to sell to them.

Child abuse and human trafficking isn't going away either. No matter what I think of it . But this doesn't mean it should be legalised

Prostitution will not be going away. No matter what you think of it or why it exits or who uses it or who provides it, who pimps it and who sucks it down, or their motivations or their dreams or nightmares or if it could be a valid 'empowered choice' or just self delusion or whatever. Justice Vs Injustice words words words. Blah. Men Men Men. Meh. Its a dangerous business, right now, and its not shutting its doors. Legalisation and regulation allow for the best possible safety and support framework for sex workers, the vast bulk of whom are women, and I support it on that basis.

If you legalise prostitution you end up with a two-tier system with the legal and the not legal.

If you decriminalise prostitution, then you are essentially leaving the industry to police itself, something industries as a general rule are very bad at doing.

Just look at how the International Union of Sex Workers allows pimps to be members.

The way to eliminate prostitution would be to make sure that all women on the planet have financial independence and true options. When women have options they don't 'choose' prostitution. Men as a class want there to be an underclass of women too poor or optionless to avoid sexual abuse and so have a vested interest in denying women access to education and above-subsistence level work.

No, no ok if the women earn 'enough' - because who defines 'enough'?

We shouldn't ever say jobs are ok if they earn 'enough'. Else you go back to a situation where people will volunteer to be prostitute knowing they'll die before 30 in agony, but having provided for their families. Or you look at current situations where people work with carcinogens for high pay.

Economic models help, but what we need is a change in attitude. That must happen first. I can believe that, in a radically different sociey, selling sex could be quite normal and fine. But we'd have to change society first, not try the shortcut.

I think i mean that unless we provide benefits to all women to cover all wants and desires, there will be a proportion who will see sex work as a viable option (even if only at the high end). There wil also always be a group of men who will utilise this supply. do we say that it is ok if the women earn enough?

No, it isn't inherently rape or abuse.

But it is in our current society. And men aren't inherently rapists or abusers.

Therefore, I think it more likely society will change, than men's innate natures (if there is such a thing) will change.

But it simply isn't inherently rape or abuse to exchange sexual services for money. Nor is it inherently wrong to exchange money for sexual services. It's not an industry that everyone would like to work in, but nor is obstetrics, farming or being a window cleaner responsible for going up 50 floors in one of those lairy tin bath things.

carol, when I said I don't think men are fundamentally abusive or rapists, I meant, I think they're not innately those things.

LRD you are reliant on education of men and women. Prostitutes sell their wares to men and encourage them to think that this is ok, as do all sex workers. I find it difficult to believe (although I would like to) that we can have a position where sex work would not be an acceptable option to some women.

I mean ... I don't believe men are fundamentally abusive or rapists, and I doubt you do.

Oh, I absolutely think it's possible.

Seems very odd you belive we wouldn't - why?

LRD I am surprised that you think it is possible. Sweden is supposedly working to get rid of it but it seems that all they have done is take it off the street. Detection rate of men committing the crime has gone down but there are less police actively looking (I read that somewhere but can't think where). This is a relatively small population which should be easier to police. Unless there are thousands of police actively hunting the crime we will never know just how much is going on.

Now migrate that to larger countries like the UK or US and all we are going to get is the same as we have now. Considering only 20% of prostitutes work the street (american sociological association 2007 here we probably will never know how much is actually going on behind closed doors. So under those cercumstances I doubt we will ever get rid of it.

Oh, yes, I think it's possible.

I don't think legislation is better. Much worse, really - and elimiating prostitution wouldn't be 'perfect' either, as women will still be sexually exploited. It'd be a tiny start, really, I think.

Imagine it in terms of race. Imagine someone saying 'well, we could eliminate slavery, or we could just make it illegal to geld slaves - that'd help! And we could ban whipping ...' you could go on a long time, and it'd still make most of us sick to imagine that 'compromise'. And we'd all know that the elimination of slavery - the 'perfect' in your book - didn't in the least equate to 'good' or even 'liveable' for many, as there was still huge prejudice.

If you eliminated prostitution tomorrow, there'd still be a stigma against ex-prostitutes, and not against the men who exploited them.