5 questions for people who advocate legal prostitution

I'm in NZ, too.

I just googled the massage parlour in the town I grew up in, and it seems it's still going strong. Monterells. Same situation - no kerb crawlers, no dealers and no late night trouble, and they were open every evening. Possibly day time too, it's just that the flashing light-bulb sign wasn't as obvious. We thought it was hilarious as kids, but it must have done (and presumably still does do) a roaring trade.

I wonder who the punters were/are. It's a tourist town now, but it wasn't when I was growing up. You didn't get many out-of-towners at all so the clientele must have been, for the most part, locals. Right in town, but down a pedestrian street, so easy to be discreet.

It's interesting to see you've ignored the fact that women can and do enjoy recreational sex with no fear of unwanted children.

I haven't ignored this; I've acknowledged it in a previous post.

It doesn't alter the fact that as soon as you become sexually active as a women, you do run the risk of becoming pregnant. No contraceptive is 100%.

The only way to have 100% risk-of-pregnancy-free sex is either via sterilisation, or as a man.

As a sexually active woman, especially in the early years of experimenting with sex, pregnancy is an active possibility. For men, it's not.

Men will never fully understand what it's like to have sexual intercourse, knowing that there is a possibility, no matter how remote, that you might get pregnant and have to deal with the consequences. Just like men will never fully understand what it's like to carry an unwanted pregnancy and to want/need an abortion, nor what childbirth feels like.

For men, sex is just sex. It's fun, it's enjoyable, and assuming they know the right way to put a condom on to minimise the chances of STIs, it's risk-free.

This is the mindset of men, as a group, when it comes to sex. My opinion is that it goes a long way towards explaining why they feel it's something they can buy, in a way women (as a group) don't. Why don't women, en mass, buy sex, BTW?

Again, I do not support prostitution, and would love to think that it might be eradicated one day.

Prostitution is not illegal in New Zealand. I used to live on the same street as an establishment named, 'JoJo Massage' their opening hours seemed to be 10am till late, as I would see the white (not red) flashing lights go on.

There were no kerb crawlers no drug dealers and no late night trouble.

I now work in an office on the same street as, 'Roxannes Bordello' I kid you not. Complete with the silouette outline of a curvy, naked woman. Pretty similar to what some trucks have on their cab. I walk past this establishment twice a day. Ironically, a second hands goods shop has moved into the ground floor retail space - totally separate to the business next door !

There's also another couple of adult entertainment establishments on the opposite corner.

BTW the street is the main thoroughfare to the centre of town.

scarletalliance.org.au/issues/swedish_model/Swedish_briefing/

More info here from the Rose Alliance and Scarlet Alliance (groups in Sweden made up of prostitutes).

Sexworkers (prostitutes) in Sweden can:

• lose their homes

• be branded as unfit parents and have their children taken off them

• be charged with "running a brothel" if they work together (under the Swedish model selling sex has not been decriminalised outright).

• deported if they aren't local residents (even if they are EU residents)

• cannot receive STD testing anonymously

Also:

-Social work resources are now scarce because attempting to enforce the law is so expensive.

-Human trafficking is seen as the same as consenting sexwork in Sweden. This makes it impossible to identify the women/men who really are trafficked.

-As for the clients: the clients who get caught usually pay a small fine and be sent on their way, and not one client who has gone to court has been sent to prison because sexworkers almost always refuse to testify against them.

IMO the Swedish/Nordic model has a lot of deterrents which may prevent a sexworker reporting a client.

I do not support this model, I support decriminalisation.

@DadWasHere

Here is a quote from a Swedish prostitute/sexworker:

"Carina Edlund, Rose Alliance, Sweden, will speak about the increased stigma and discrimination resulting from of the 1999 Swedish law which criminalised clients.
“Before even thinking of a law that criminalises men who buy sex, UK politicians should hear from Swedish sex workers like myself about how we have treated under the law. We are still criminalised if we work together in apartments, we risk losing our home if we sell sex there even if we own it, social workers treat as like children and we can even lose custody of our kids because we are seen as victims suffering from a form of self-harm who can't take care of ourselves. This law should be taken away not exported to other countries.”"

from
lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/sex-workers-response-stop.html

Sigh... things I really CBA with: men talking about legalising fucking of women who don't want to fuck them and pretending it is for the welfare of the women. Grim.

You think it would not improve their welfare? Is a chance to strike at johns more important to you? Try the Swedish model then. I am not familiar enough with it to know the extent to which it can protect women, given its an odd notion to make selling something legal but the purchase of it illegal, but if it better protects women its a great idea, at least until you get around to inventing that magic wand.

Anyone have links to what the Swedish sex industry thinks of their model?

I don't believe buying access to other people's bodies is considered revolting by the majority of men! How often have you heard of a man breaking the "what goes on tour" stag rule by promptly telling all the WAGS what their men got up to while away? Do we often see blokes arguing vehemently with their pals outside strip bars, explaining why they should find a different late-licensed place to carry on drinking? Do the hooker jokes told by the geezers in your local meet with resounding disapproval from the other geezers?

Thought not.

Flora

Then our perceptions of why men hire bodies for sex are very divergent, Margaret. I believe a move away from rape 'inevitability' carries the seeds of a move away from prostitution 'inevitability'. I believe they come from the same set of attitudes.

It's interesting to see you've ignored the fact that women can and do enjoy recreational sex with no fear of unwanted children. Perhaps you're very attached to this idea about men & women having different sexual feelings, I dunno, but your rationale doesn't make sense in the UK in 2014.

Sigh... things I really CBA with: men talking about legalising fucking of women who don't want to fuck them and pretending it is for the welfare of the women. Grim.

I can envisage a future without prostitution! It's one in which everybody is financially self-sufficient, in which 100% contraception is freely available...

So not in our lifetime, then? This utopia hasn't existed for as long as humankind has been around, and there is no sign of us reaching a place where it will exist... If anything, thanks to Internet porn, lap dancing clubs and the like, we are regressing.

...and where buying access to other people's bodies is considered revolting.

It already is, by the majority(?). It doesn't stop the demand and supply of prostitution.

I'd love to agree with you, I really would. But I don't see prostitution ever going away. For the fundamental reasons that I've already outlined. That men come at sex from a very different standpoint than women.

There are absolutely other areas where I see a sea-change in attitude, one day, eventually effecting change. Rape, for instance. The move from blaming the victim for bringing it on themselves, to putting the blame fairly and squarely on the the shoulders of the rapist. Not everyone thinks like this yet and we still have a long way to go. But attitudes are changing, and I can possibly envisage a future where women who are raped are believed, convictions go up, and rape stops being quite so prevalent.

Prostitution, not so much...

Munich & Amsterdam, for starters.

The criminal elements are not so easily removed. Cheapskate punters will have cheap prostitution, legally or not.

I'm sure I posted this an hour ago!

This is what I think many posters won't believe about a legalised trade.

I dont understand, its how it works, what is there not to believe about it?

Some sex workers do like their work. Some see themselves as healers and therapists. They are in a minority, but they exist. Lots of people do lots of different jobs that they don't like much but which suit their current circumstances. I would think that most people these days don't actually plan on remaining in the same line of work (whatever it may be) forever and i doubt that many of those who work in chain restaurants or call centres or as cab drivers see their employment as a 'family business' that they want their children to follow them into.

SGB, I have a couple of friends who are obstetricians. Not a job for everyone, but they love it and want to be obstetricians for ever. I'm from a farming family. Not a job for everyone, but despite the low profit margin and the weather, and the fact that you wouldn't know it from the whinging of some of them- most farmers are still wobbling around the yard with a bucket in their hand at the age of 90 while their son does the work, and eventually get carried off the place in a box. Most farms where I live are owned by the farmers (very little tenant farming), the land itself is sometimes worth millions and yet I only know one farmer who sold the whole thing to build a golf course and make a mint. My window cleaner is a cheery chap who is building up his business and my DH works at height in his job. It's not a job for everyone, but he likes it (though the physical aspect brings most of them to earth in the end).

Prostitution "isn't for everyone", but maybe the vast majority of prostitutes whistle on their way to work, love their job, are proud of their empowering, rewarding "career choice", would turn up on a Monday morning even if they won Euromillions and plan to become a madam when they are too old to do the work themselves and wouldn't mind too much if their daughters followed them into the family business. Ya think?

In the UK, with our benefits system, is prostitution a financial necessity?

a legal brothel where clients are videotaped and the manager will call the police at the first hint of trouble

This is what I think many posters won't believe about a legalised trade. My unsuccessful forays into the business happened at very expensive hotels, where the booker worked on reception. There was no way anything bad was going to happen to me - apart from what was supposed to happen.

You can get that when you charge a thousand pounds. Theoretically, I'd be in favour of licensed, monitored, limited, regulated & taxed brothels until we can solve the underlying causes. In practice, though, the criminal elements won't be removed so easily and the customers won't stop looking for a bargain. Cf Munich & Amsterdam. Problems much worse.

You're right, of course, Margaret - sex is far less consequential for men than for women, generally speaking. The Pill was supposed to fix that. Well, it helped a lot, but the basic issues remain. All the same, a woman can have sex for fun these days, with little fear of unwanted children, and most do :)

We still don't go around buying access to other people's bodies, though: at least, not as casually as men do or in such numbers.

I can envisage a future without prostitution! It's one in which everybody is financially self-sufficient, in which 100% contraception is freely available, and where buying access to other people's bodies is considered revolting.

WTF? How?

Are you kidding me? Same as any adult being moved illegally can tell the difference between being trafficked/kidnapped Vs being smuggled, by their consent.

You know prostitutes get raped by johns, right? Even without describing paid sex as 'rape'. And it happens pretty frequently, actually.

What on earth do you expect to happen where something is illegal yet highly sought after with no particular alternative? Its what made prohibition in the US such a colourful and dangerous time in history. Conducting any illegal activity makes it FAR more dangerous, you place yourself at the mercy of clients and the criminal underworld. Being raped while engaging in an illegal activity, what are you going to do with that, go to the police? You need protection from clients? Sorry if its illegal, you don’t get to work in a legal brothel where clients are videotaped and the manager will call the police at the first hint of trouble, you work out of sight and your backup is a pimp and a can of mace in your purse.

If it's all about risk of pregnancy, what about women who have no risk of pregnancy eg post menopausal women, women who are already pregnant, those who cannot conceive because they have been sterilised or are infertile, women who have sex with women . Do they all see sex as a recreational activity in the same way as men do?

I'm talking about men as a group, and women as a group.

From the moment they can have sex, it is purely an enjoyable activity for men.

From the moment women can have sex (and not many women start having consensual sex before they get their first period), it comes with the risk of pregnancy.

Mankind and womankind do not come at the activity from an equal position. I don't see how anyone can deny this. Looking at the population level, bigger picture - sex is consequence-free for men, but carries serious risk for women.

Yes, of corse, there are individual women who are infertile (who generally won't know that until they're older and actively TTC), women who pass through the child-bearing decades and hit the menopause, etc, etc, etc.

But that doesn't negate the fact that the two sexes view the act of sex quite differently. Yes, of course women treat sex as a recreational activity now, in this day and age, but only when they've sorted their contraception out, and many will still have that bit of worry when their period is due.

And traditionally, of course, women have born the full brunt of the shame associated with pregnancy outside marriage, illegitimate children, being forced to give children up for adoption, Magdalene Laundrys, being ostracised from families, and all the rest. While the men got off Scott-free.

Men have none of that. Yes, your individual man does, because he loves you, and cares about you. But I'm talking about mankind in general.

Maybe I'm struggling to make the point in way that's clear. It must be fabulous to hit adolescence, discover sex, and not have to worry at all about what might happen to your body (and ultimately, your life) if you conceive a child...

I just think this fundamental difference, sadly, makes it very difficult to envisage a future where prostitution no longer exists...

I'm not sure if I agree that legalising it would make things better. And what about strippers and other kinds of sex work. Should they be banned. Interesting point that if everyone was completely financially independent then there would be no need for prositution from a woman's point of view.

I agree the solution is to stop male entitlement. One of the ways to hit that is to tell men that they aren't allowed to buy women's bodies i.e. criminalising punters.

I don't know how you'd let prostitutes have better pay when their pimps will probably take it from them anyway if you don't do something seriously about tackling and penalising them too.

... Instead of advocating legalisation or criminalisation, should we be advocating better pay?

I'm asking that for the sake of argument, btw. The real solution is to abolish male 'entitlement', but that might take a while ...

Some of my friends, in the past, were very expensive prostitutes. They certainly chose it. They were sometimes abused, and I wouldn't say their choice was entirely 'free' as their underlying values weren't all that well balanced. While I would describe what they did as technically being raped, I can attest they lived extremely well, had some freedom to veto certain clients & activities, and could have left the business at any time.

So perhaps all our questions relate mainly to less-expensive prostitutes?

they're buying someone's consent, who would otherwise not be in the slightest bit willing to give it, i.e. they're essentially raping someone.

Doesn't that apply to pretty much every paid task? I'm not saying that cleaning toilets, for example, is the same as prostitution, but you wouldn't be the slightest bit willing to do it if you weren't being paid, so in that specific way it is similar. That raises the question: is it wrong for someone to get paid to do something if they wouldn't do it for free? That isn't to say that prostitution is not wrong, but is it wrong for that reason?