Any appetite for further discussion on 'trans-feminism'?

The very use of the word 'transphobia' is a sleight of hand.

I don't hate radical transactivists (never met one, don't read the on-line barneys), I just fundamentally disagree with their views on gender.

Something that bothers me about relationship-related partner-of-transperson stuff - misgendering is classed as abusive. So if a woman's husband tells her to use female pronouns etc and she slips up, she's an abuser. Why hasn't this been questioned more?

I totally agree with you btw hakluyt and well done on your stylish delurk.

Rapidly searching thread to see what I had missed

It feels so unnatural to be told you are on the "wrong side" of tolerant.

The fact that you aren't really (logically) doesn't make it easier.

I can only imagine what would be the response on MN if I said "I told my dh I was really a man now (with a vagina) and AIBU to wonder why won't he start coming out as a gay man to his friends?"

[mind boggled]

But every other "transwoman" thread women fall over themselves to be as tolerant as possible. Tolerance can only be extended to men

And I wasn't being obnoxious. I am aware that the Mumsnet received wisdom is that being very bright is just as much a special need as having learning difficulties, and should be treated similarly. I just don't agree. I think that for very bright children a hands off, student guided approach is the best way- obviously with a pedagogic overview. I don't think that's short changing the very bright- it's facilitating their learning rather than teaching them. And in the competition for resources, the children with learning difficulties should win. Every time.

I am aware that that is a very unpopular view.

No which, I don't think they are and I think them not being challenged comes down to fear of being called unaccepting or inolerant and fear of confronting men. And I know that not wanting to be labelled is my own issue and there's a wealth of stuff I need to explore around why I feel the need to non confrontational and universally accepting. But that's a bit of a tangent.

The more I read the more I am finding myself feeling as you describe. As I said though, I've not been looking at this for very long and feel like I'm only touching the surface of shaping my own feminism in general.

ifyouarehoppy

Do you think transactivist are worrying about your very real life and the abuse and the abuse and unpleasant experience women experience all the time when they tell you that their definition of what is a woman is the only one that counts?

Your actual experience of being and living as a woman does not make you an expert, theirs does though. and you are a bigot if you don't accept their view. They are not bigots for imposing their view and telling you however what a woman really is.

They aren't sitting their thinking maybe that by actually deciding that a woman is this narrow little stereotype that they might be bigoted. And that they might be bigots. NO ONE is calling them bigots. Why is no one calling them out on it? Why are we allowing ourselves to be gaslighted in to what a woman is?

I think those sorts of tactics have worked very well with women's sector organisations, events and clubs, and even sporting organisations as well as on an individual level. It trades on work lesbian and gay people have done for decades and completely upturns what we worked for, which makes me very sad.

I think like most people though I have a very gut reaction to being called intolerant or transphobic. I don't think I am either of those things, but at the same time I'm not willing to make the concessions being asked of me in the name of accepting transwomen into women's spaces.

I find when I look at what folk are asked to do in the name of tolerance (lesbians consider partners with penises etc), I wonder how much of this is about actual tolerance.
I mean, nobody sensible would tolerate that, surely? It's not like there are loads and loads of trans people demanding that - it's a tiny minority allowed to dominate discourse, supported by earnest pro-pornstitution 20-something women who really hate feminism, and now 'hey I'm a nice guy' liberal men who like telling women off.

Sort of in the same boat as Italian (minus the religion) in that this is an issue I'm just getting to know/form an opinion on.

I'm having a difficult time balancing my feelings for the abuse and unpleasant experiences trans people must face all the time, with feeling like that still doesn't make it OK to direct their anger at radical feminists and women in general. I find the invasion of women's spaces and the demands being placed on women's resources and time have a distinct whiff of misogyny and I feel very uncomfortable with trans women claiming that they are women. But then I feel like I'm perhaps being intolerant (am a people pleaser). I don't really know what to think most of the time. I find myself agreeing with cotes posts on trans thread quite regularly.

I realise there's an obvious parallel with trans issues but for me the authenticity of claiming an identity with the opposite sex to your own, but for me it comes back to ideas about 'born in the wrong body' seeming to contradict my worldview. 'born in a society with the wrong ideas about what my body means' maybe.

I've seen several evangelical christians talk about trans issues in terms of embodiment theology. I don't really understand that, as my understanding of it is that a mind-body connection is important, and that we all have bodies and take up space in the world within them. And that our bodies are real and material and have physical requirements.
To me, the idea that I am somehow in the wrong body goes against this.
But I realise these things can get complicated.
To me, trans explanations of gender identity seem closer to complimentarian ideas around 'female' characteristics vs 'male' ones which I really don't agree with.
I'm really glad that most churches have engaged with issues relevant to lesbian and gay parishioners. It is really important to me that people shouldn't have to reject their faith in order to live an authentic life.

Italiangreyhound, that is a very good question indeed.
My view is that radical feminists tend to come in for more flack than, say, pro-porn, pro-prostitution, pro-stripclub feminists because they challenge the dominant view that women are objects, whereas the pro-sex-industry ones don't. (similar with other issues which divide feminists)

So mainstream feminists feel uncomfortable supporting radical feminists, male rights activists are more driven to challenge radical feminists, make us targets for misogynistic abuse etc.

It's a pretext.

*and that you are also a lesbian and they must have sex with you and your lesbian penis

italian, I think men (even those who believe they are women) will understand male privilege very well and know that men will never accept them as women. They are however used to women rolling over and literally letting them do as they like. So when radfems refuse to roll and take it this is especially galling. These men are reacting the way most men do and using violence and threats to get their point across even though their behaviour is showing how very male they are. Women don't issue rape and death threats when shit does not go their way.

I don't think it is a problem to feel sympathy for the average person who sees them selves as trans and also not believe they are the sex they say they are. I do feel bad for them but I also think that people like them will be helped by ripping down strict gender norms in the future. I think accepting their beliefs like they insist we do will lead to more young people forced to be "trans gender" rather than just who they are and forced to see their body as betraying them.

It is ironic because I see the radical feminist ideology as the most kind one to trans people. It says that who you are and what you are and how you act out your "gender" is fine. Wear a dress if you are a man, wear a beard if you are a woman. There is nothing wrong with that. You are still a man in a dress and you can still be a heterosexual man in a dress. Why not? There is nothing wrong with being a heterosexual man in a dress.

There is something really wrong with telling other women that because you are a heterosexual man in a dress you must be a woman and allowed access to their safe places.

I just woke up, but in my view the answer to your question is twofold, Italian. First of all, radical feminists are women, and transwomen want something from women that they don;t want from men, namely inclusion.

And second, I think trans people avoid confronting men for the same reason that women generally avoid confronting men: because of the possibility of physical violence.

Radical feminists do not hit or kill trans people. Men do. But, as you say, it's radfems coming under fire.

Can I ask a very simple question, please?

Because I am very confused to some degree!

I have been a feminist a long time but as an evangelical Christian I would probably not be seen as very radical at all!

I avoided the whole gay rights issues for years but when the equal marriage bill came out and some Christians were very anti gay marriage I was forced to look into the issue and find myself now very supportive of equal marriage. Along with the support for equal marriage I felt a strong compassion for those who claimed to be trapped in the wrong gender bodies. It seemed to me very sad that they should live their lives forced to conform in some ways, hate their bodies, that they felt biology had not really prepared them for etc (my words).

Now, I do not know what to think to some degree! I had seen trans people as very much ill treated by society but am now very shocked to see pictures of trans people threatening radical feminists with knives (via photos and words etc) on line and attempting to gain access to places very much in a way that seems to set out to cause upset.

And my question, I had not forgotten it,.... is... I am sure there are a lot of people out there, I am guessing a lot of straight men, amongst others, who would be very anti trans people and very 'misgendering' of them. Why are radical feminists coming in for all this flack from some areas of the trans gender community. Is it just that they are the easy target?

Sorry if this is a very dopey question.

It is very much an eye opener here, I have read the whole thread and followed most links and really am seeing things from a different perspective. I would have said I was very happy to share changing or bathroom facilities with trans women and I am now wondering how I can tread a compassionate pathway through what is a much more complex issue.

I only mention my religion here to explain why, to some degree, I have not engaged with these issues before! Because in some areas of the church these are either not issues that are discussed or they are very new (they are of course not new at all) but really people congregate around others who share their views so people can be quite conservative or liberal but end up listening to and talking with people who share their views.

Mumsnet is great as it enables people to hear a different view without going very far off the beaten track!

No desire to derail and feel free to ignore my question if you wish. Thanks.

It's-Her-Factory (which that is from) is a great blog about music (and, often, race, and, often, gender)

yup

Buffy, I like your extension of the bar analogy.

What about this extension:

The people in the bar who are on expense accounts, drinking freely for years, have credit cards which entitle them to fine wines only. This was because at the time the accounts were set up, the accounting software did not enable them to have access to a full variety of drinks, so they chose the most rare and expensive. your drink token only allows you to buy one kind of bog standard bitter.

This person who has arrived and has had a shit day has often drunk freely of the fine wines, in a past life. But (s)he actually happens to prefer beer, and resents that (s)he hardly ever gets to drink it (only in private while feeling ashamed at enjoying such a declassé drink). the fact that your token entitles you (not through choice, to a miserable, limited amount of) beer is one of the reasons that (s)he considers you very fortunate and considers themself to be more entitled to your drink than you. (No one has ever asked you if you would like wine, or how much)