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Original poster

Response on BBC AQ tonight to Dawkins fuckwittery

32 replies

Amethyst24 · 22/08/2014 23:54

I'm a new poster on FWR, but I've been reading the board for a few months and have found so much food for thought. I'm nowhere near as informed as many of the posters here, so please be gentle with me.

One of the questions on Any Questions tonight was about Dawkins' horrible tweet about aborting babies with Down's Syndrome. The question itself was very emotive - it was read out my the husband of the woman who'd asked it, because she was blind and not able to read it herself. And it was basically phrased as, "Should we abort all DS babies?"

The first panelist to respond, Professor Hugh Pennington, basically said yes, on the basis that he's seen very poor outcomes for people with DS in his years working in medicine. His answer was greeted with a deathly silence.

The next three all said no, citing right to life, the feelings a pregnant woman has for her child, the real value people with DS bring to society, and so on. They were all cheered enthusiastically.

Not one of them mentioned choice. I'm trying to unpick this. Is it because a DS pregnancy is assumed to be the result of a couple who want a baby, and therefore about "them" not about "her"? Is it because when the foetus had disabilities, suddenly it is about the foetus more than about the woman carrying it and her choices?

Or were they all just after cheap, populist points, because it's so much easier to say, "A disabled foetus is as valuable as one that isn't," than, "A woman/family has the right to decide whether they want to have a baby, regardless of its viability in the short or longer term"?

I was pretty clear about my reaction to Dawkins' original tweet - "Who the fuck are you to tell women what to do?" But I think I would, if I'd ever been in that position, have done what he thinks women ought to do, because for me, I agree with him.

But I'm so enraged that the debate tonight was all about the foetus/unborn baby, not about the woman's choice.

And I've had lots of wine so I'm probably being incoherent and/or offensive. But I'd be very grateful for feedback from those who can see this more clearly than I can.

OP posts:
Applefallingfromthetree2 · 23/08/2014 01:25

With Pinkpip all the way!

Pro choice is one thing and many would agree that hard as it is, a woman should have the right to abort A DS child? However the arrogance of the man to say it is someone's moral duty to do so is something else. I'm not sure what his argument is based on to be honest. Pain and suffering to the child and parents or pain and suffering to society if such children are born?

Theoretically it might be nice if we could solve all health and social difficulties that arise as a result of genetic faults. The trouble is so many illnesses and susceptibilities are routed in our inheritance quite a few of us would land up on the Dawkins scrap heap.

Original poster
Amethyst24 · 23/08/2014 00:55

Pinkpip, I agree with you broadly that Dawkins' soundbite was offensive and wrong. My problem with the arguments put forward was that they were "NO - LIFE!" rather than, "NO - CHOICE!", because the former is such an easy, populist position.

OP posts:
Mumzy · 23/08/2014 00:52

When we have children most of us have no real idea what it's like to live with a child 24/7 and to be honest it's a real shock to the system to be responsible for all their needs. A child with a serious medical condition has that and the unpredictability of their condition plus having to manage their medical needs. A lot of children with serious disabilities spend more time in hospital than at home and family life is often non existent as the parents are consumed with caring for their disabled child often with little help or respite.

pinkpip100 · 23/08/2014 00:50

I think that most people who disagree with Dawkins on this (as I do) are not disputing the fundamental right of a woman to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy, regardless of the circumstances, but are questioning his assertion that it would be immoral not to abort if the baby was found to have ds. His logic here is based on an unfounded assumption that ds inevitably and invariably equals unhappiness and suffering, and that people with ds make no contribution to society. This is what it sounds like the panel were arguing against, and rightly so in my view. Had Dawkins' point been that all women should have the right to choose to have an abortion if they find out the baby has ds, I think very few (rational/sane) people would disagree. My disclaimer here is that I am a pro-choice feminist and also the mother to a 1 year old with ds.

Original poster
Amethyst24 · 23/08/2014 00:31

Thank you both. Yes, the other panelists weren't medical experts at all, and their responses, and the audience's reaction, just highlight why Dawkins should STFU about things like this, because he really does no favours to people who broadly agree with him but aren't... um... quite so abrasive.

The other panelists were Elaine C Smith, Sir Anthony Seldon and Tony Banks, none of whom I'd heard of before. She was all "as a mother" and "I have a nephew with DS", and the two men were shouting about right to life per se.

OP posts:
lildupin · 23/08/2014 00:20

The next three all said no, citing right to life, the feelings a pregnant woman has for her child, the real value people with DS bring to society, and so on.

Well at least one of the three cited the feelings of the gravida, so that's something! I didn't see it - who were the other panelists?

I think part of the reason why the answers went as they did was possibly because of the way the question was phrased: basically, the questioner asked if all pregnancies of DS babies should be terminated. If I was asked that question I'd immediately say "Of course not! Compulsory termination is barbaric and abusive and completely unacceptable!" and I get the impression your answer would be the same.
But it does sound like the panelists heard the question as an abstract question about the "value" Hmm of people with DS and their right to life, and answered accordingly (as opposed to answering a question about the right of individual women to make their own choices about their own lives).

I too have had a reasonable amount of wine so I may not be making sense! But basically I think the panelists were responding to "should people with DS be allowed to come into existence?" and not thinking about it from the POV of a woman who's just been told her baby probably has DS.

Mumzy · 23/08/2014 00:16

I work in an area of medicine where we treat dcs with serious disabilities. Privately most doctors and nurses I worked with say they would abort a child if the scan picked up a serious medical condition or if they couldn't abort for religious reasons they would put the child up for adoption. I think if people have seen what a lot of families with disabled children go through they might understand RD's and Hugh Pennington's opinions.