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Original poster

Women in IT

57 replies

EBearhug · 22/08/2014 22:21

I bet I'm not going to see male IT workers advertising underwear.

www.bustle.com/articles/36790-dear-kate-debuts-ada-collection-modeled-by-real-life-women-in-tech-jobs-for-the-coolest-lookbook

I might have sometimes have not been fully dressed when working from home (and definitely not when I've been on call at 3am), but it's not something I tend to share with my colleagues, and I definitely wouldn't be sharing photos of me like that.

I work in a techy area of IT, and I'm actively involved in promoting STEM to schools and so on, in the hope that one day, I won't be in such a minority, doing sys admin. I want women in IT to be normal, and not a nice adornment whom we can imagine in her knickers while making the diversity stats look nice.

I'm a bit torn (but not very) - there's part of me thinking, well, they've got women of all sizes, which should be good. And it's good they want to promote women in IT.

But I don't want the idea of women in IT to be women sitting round in their underwear. Jeans and t-shirt or a suit, like the normal work clothes for women working in IT, rather than the normal work clothes for strippers.

Yes, that's why I'm pissed off with it - couldn't quite put my finger on it when I started typing. It's because I know that there are still quite a lot of men who think women in IT are only really a good thing if they're there for their titillation, and they can imagine them sitting there in their knickers. Well, now they don't have to imagine. I bet they're not thinking about how good their java programming skills are or anything. I don't think this ad is really going to help, because the problem with women in IT is not women, it's men.

(And it's all my own fault for clicking links from other FWR threads - in this case, the one on the OK Cupid make up experiment.)

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Original poster
EBearhug · 30/08/2014 00:39

I hadn't heard of glassdoor before - interesting site. I read some of the reviews on my own employer, and it pretty much reflects my view that it really depends on the department you're in, whether it's a really good or really bad experience working with us. There were a couple of mentions of bullying, and one was about sexual harassment, and others say the culture is really good. But it's a big multinational, so it depends a lot on your department, your division, your country, and there will be a lot of variation because of that.

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antimatter · 29/08/2014 10:11

I was looking at comment about companies in glassdoor. I haven't come across any mentions about diversity or how minorities/women are treated. I think it is assumed there are no problem in those areas.

BecauseIsaidS0 · 29/08/2014 08:38

What EBearHug says. We need to talk about what companies are good and which ones are bad. I used to work for one of the most admired financial institutions, and a friend once reported a man who made a really, really offensive comment. He was then put in charge of the diversity effort for the region. I wish I was kidding. Where I work now...some departments are awful, some are good (my current one is pretty good so I do recommend it when people ask).

Original poster
EBearhug · 28/08/2014 22:40

I think wherever you go, there's a risk that there will be some men who appear not to have been aware that 2nd wave feminism happened, let alone 3rd or 4th wave. But there are some good employers out there - I'd definitely recommend my own as one to apply to, just not my department (and even most of them are pretty good.) I've also been in other companies where they've had training on harassment and so on, and a definite commitment to a good working environment. Nowhere's perfect, but some places are better than others.

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HearMyRoar · 28/08/2014 21:01

I work in a non-tech role (web management) but working closely with developers and have enough tech knowledge to know what I'm talking about most of the time. I work in the public sector, which in many ways is great; flexible working, great maternity, obvious misogynistic banter is not accepted. I think there are probably more women about then in a lot of places.

However, I still had to threaten formal proceedings before they put my pay up to the same grade as the men doing the same role as me. This was despite everyone, including my manager admitting that I was much better at the job then any of them.

Willy waving is everywhere and I am used to having to fight my corner to be heard and not patronised by male colleagues. They generally only do it once but it is bloody annoying having to deal with it when you see men who haven't a clue what they are talking about treated like they are some sort of genius for having seen a website once.

There are no female developers at all where I am. Quite a few project managers but I still regularly attend development meetings where I am the only woman.

I'm actually looking for another job at the moment but some of your posts are making me wonder if it's actually just going to be worse somewhere else.

antimatter · 28/08/2014 20:26

In our office everyone says Hi to everyone (but few...) - we are v.small office and know new faces as they come and join. I always make effort to introduce myself to every new person who joins or comes over from US (that is our culture)

Original poster
EBearhug · 28/08/2014 20:16

Erm, I suspect I don't often say hi in the kitchen, unless someone else initiates it.

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antimatter · 28/08/2014 19:18

I also work in IT in very male dominated speciality very similar to OP.
I have had to go all the way to HR to bring up issues with inappropriate language "banter" men were using in the office. I stopped being too friendly with those men as the really make me feel sick with their mysogyny and inability to understand that words do matter! (example - why can't I call girl a bird?)

I have to say my company is taking those things seriously even thought the main part of HR is US based they are super sensitive and sensible about it.
One very unpleasant person is leaving our team. I complained about him undermining my technical ability. Interestingly his manager never noticed it.... until I pointed out and during conference call he got his superiority hat on.
We have to keep complaining and bringing that to HR/management. I am hopeful that every little step helps.

In out technical teams in UK there are only 2 females - me and another one who is in her mi 30's. All new recruits are young men with very poor social skills.... They still don't know how to say "Hi" in the kitchen... Is that too much to ask?

BlueStringPudding · 28/08/2014 18:52

The IT company I work for (a large multinational) has a big graduate programme, as well as a newer Apprentice programme. We only mandate a 2.1 degree, and all applicants undertake an online aptitude test.

For some technical roles, managers do favour graduates with Computer Science, but are encouraged to look at other good applicants. Candidates with STEM subjects do better than those with other subjects - but we have hired graduates into technical roles with Psychology, Classics, Geography, Marketing and Criminology degrees to mention a few that I know personally.

CommanderShepard · 28/08/2014 08:39

Ugh. UGH.

I'm also IT (well, just starting out having been in another career first) and I don't know how I feel about my first reaction to this, which was I'd have possibly been less disgruntled by it if they weren't predominantly 'founders'.

I have to say that my company is incredibly woman-friendly, despite the fact that I'm the only woman in the company to begin with (but we are only 10 in total). I'm part-time, I can work flexibly, I've been given a full home office setup. Admittedly my social rank is 'mum' and I'm not one of the most technically-minded members of the team but everything that makes me me turns out to be really useful to a small IT support company.

I don't think this 'lookbook' is helpful at all.

Original poster
EBearhug · 28/08/2014 08:07

My graduate group, we were probably about 40% women. We weren't all grads, either, but those who weren't were internal. We did do aptitude tests and I did specifically apply to IT - there were a couple of other programmes for non-IT routes.

I don't know if that company (or its post-merger successor) still has graduate schemes of any sort. My current one takes student and graduate interns for placements of up to a year, but I'm not aware of a programme for more permanent jobs - there could be something in other countries, though, particularly the US. (I feel I should know. )

If companies are taking only IT graduates for IT jobs, the field will be even narrower, as fewer apply for it at uni (especially women).

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MrsCakesPrecognition · 28/08/2014 01:37

I loved my career in IT, started as a programmer and gradually moved to a technical specialist role. Out of the 16 graduates recruited as programmers in my entry group, 4 were women. Some times I was the only woman on a team or in a meeting, but there were lots of women working in technical roles and I led an all female team for a couple of years. This was a huge multinational and the HR stuff was excellent e.g. offering all staff the right to ask for flexible working regardless of personal circumstances.
It is a terrible shame that things don't seem to have improved in the last 20 years.

slightlyglitterstained · 28/08/2014 00:32

Smaller co here but def don't insist on degree. However I can see that if the big grad schemes are now closed to non computer science grads that would shut off a big potential route in.

For the aptitude tests you did, were those general tests where they decided afterwards where you'd do well, or did you have to specifically apply for IT?

HauntedNoddyCar · 27/08/2014 23:50

Couldn't agree more :) Aptitude test success here too and as you say my usp was always my ability to explain stuff to the people who used the flipping software!

Original poster
EBearhug · 27/08/2014 22:04

Yes, I'm over 40 too, and my first degree is history, and recruitment used to be about doing aptitude tests. I know we have to have an exception signed off by HR if we want them to consider non-graduates these days, but I don't know if they insist on particular subjects. Most of the vacancies these days seem to be sales and marketing rather than IT anyway (must check the internal job boards again.)

I think diversity in IT employment shouldn't just be about gender and so on - but also about diversity of background. (Just like MPs shouldn't all be public school/PPE at Oxford and never any real jobs outside Westminster.) But IT isn't just about code and hardware - you have to be able to communicate with people, to find out what they need. If you've got computers and programs which no one actually wants to use, then there's no point to it at all. You need people with different viewpoints at all levels.

I hadn't see the cost of the pants. I wouldn't be paying that, either, even if they looked better. (I might once had spent that on a pair of silk undies when I was trying to impress a man - not in the office, though.)

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Original poster
EBearhug · 27/08/2014 21:52

8 years old, year 8, it's not all the same... I will learn to read an process information some time.

Why others don't find it so easy - according to a male colleague of mine (who moved departments, so I don't have to deal with him any more, and therefore am not in prison for murder,) told me that I can think logically because I don't have enough female hormones. He was actually trying to be complimentary, saying I was good at my job. I don't think he understood how breathtakingly insulting he was - and I didn't say anything, because I was literally speechless while my brain was trying to process if I really had heard what I thought I'd heard. (Ironically, I was feeling way too premenstrually full of female hormones at that point.)

So, you can be good at your job and think logically if you are not seen as female...

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HauntedNoddyCar · 27/08/2014 19:28

Ebear dd is in Y3 rather than Y8 :) The coding was always something that came easy to me. But as I've got older I've moved out of programming and into the arenas where experience counts and change is less fundamental.
Dd seems to think logically and finds it easy so far. I haven't really established why the other girls aren't the same.

BestIsWest · 27/08/2014 19:26

And don't get me started on certifications.

IrianofWay · 27/08/2014 18:25

Hey best, I agree with you there. I have a BA in archaeology and English! Grin Back in the day any degree was seen to imply aptitude - not sure that was always true but it was in my case. Can't see it happening now. Everyone has to come oven-ready as it were with relevant qualifications.

BecauseIsaidS0 · 27/08/2014 17:44

Groan.

I work in IT (am a dev manager), am very little, furriner and blonde, guess how that works out in terms of first impressions. But I'm also good at what I do and have a very good manager at the moment.

I really do not need pictures of "women in IT" in their underwear. What were they thinking???

bonkersLFDT20 · 27/08/2014 14:08

OK, read it now. $36 for a pair of pants. No thanks. My IT job does pay me enough to spend that much on knickers!

bonkersLFDT20 · 27/08/2014 14:03

I didn't even get the title of the piece.

DEAR KATE DEBUTS "ADA COLLECTION" MODELED BY REAL-LIFE WOMEN IN TECH JOBS FOR THE COOLEST LOOKBOOK WE'VE EVER SEEN

Is Dear Kate a thing?
What's a lookbook?

I shall investigate, but it does seem to assume certain knowledge. I am in bioinformatics so IT is my world.

GlaceDragonflies · 27/08/2014 14:00

It's a terrible idea. No way would I be sitting there in my office dressed like that!
I also thought it was good about having women of all sizes, but honestly, would the pictures of Sarah Conley make you want to buy the underwear? I say this as somebody who is not exactly skinny, but her photo totally puts me off looking.

BestIsWest · 27/08/2014 13:50

I've worked in IT for 30 years, always in a technical role (DBA mostly).

I agree with everything you say eBear. Most of the women I work with are over 40. Very few younger women coming into the industry nowadays.

I think that one reason for this is that the pathways into IT are much narrower these days. My company tends to recruit maths or computing graduates only. I've worked with some fantastic people who had very diverse backgrounds - the best team I ever worked on consisted of an ex primary teacher, economics and history graduates, an ex mental health nurse and a civil engineer, all but one were women, all were fantastic iT professionals.

It can be a flexible, rewarding, reasonably well paid profession.

CMOTDibbler · 27/08/2014 08:18

I agree that other countries seem to be much more equal in programmers - I use development teams in Finland, Switzerland, India, and the US, and the finnish office is full of nice, normalish people of both genders. Same in Switzerland. In the US I only get to work with women in SQE or UX.

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