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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
FloraFox · 20/08/2014 13:12

branleuse this is a typically third wave approach - all about the individual and no consideration of the situation for women as a class. The report makes it clear that young women are being pressured and coerced into sexual activity they don't enjoy, even being anally raped. At what point, in third wave analysis, does this become something that we need to be concerned as feminists at a societal level rather than telling young women everything is okay so long as they, individually, on their own consent?

I don't see "pathetically grateful" or "trying it on clumsily" in this report and I think that's a staggeringly dismissive attitude. What I see is entitlement, coercion and lack of concern for the woman's sexual experience. And rape.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 20/08/2014 13:09

Yy seven.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 13:06

I don't like the phrase "new sex craze" either. It seems very dismissive.

Different sex acts carry different degrees of risk to one/both participants, different levels of expertise to get right, and so on.

If the "new sex craze" was for girls to lick boys ears then people wouldn't be getting upset.

I also note that the risk of harm invariable seems to weight more heavily on the female. The latest "sex craze" is not the other way around, for girls to penetrate boys with things, even though penetration with an object made for the purpose is likely to be safer than penetration with a penis, and males certainly can and do gain pleasure from penetration. Strange then, that it's always the other way around, isn't it. Could it be anything to do with the fact that some acts are presented as standard in mainstream porn while others are not.

In an ideal world people would be able to find out what they like through consensual experimentation. Rather than being told what they ought to be doing to other people or having done to them.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:59

That is what the report seems to be saying, and what teenage girls are reporting to people on the thread who work with them, yes.

And the reason that anal is problematical is because it has a high risk of STD transmission, a high risk of getting it "wrong" given that it requires certain, um, preludes if there is not going to be pain or injury. Hospitals are seeing an increase in girls with injuries due to anal sex. The boys and girls in the report both expect it to be painful for her.

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 12:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:49

Is this only new behaviours because it involves anal?

Are we saying that teenage boys are no longer what theyve always been to girls which is annoying, awkward and pathetically grateful for any sort of sexual attention, yet trying it on clumsily all the same.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 12:43

This www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/aug/20/teenagers-internet-pornography-damaging-poll?CMP=twt_gu is hopeful.

As usual, avert gaze from BTL.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:39

thanks JustThe, missed that one.

I will rephrase to "practically no-one on the thread has said this".

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 12:38

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:35

"Branleuse Wed 20-Aug-14 12:26:29
who knows? Seems pretty popular."

From the report:

"Results Anal heterosex often appeared to be painful, risky and coercive, particularly for women. Interviewees frequently cited pornography as the ‘explanation’ for anal sex, yet their accounts revealed a complex context with availability of pornography being only one element. Other key elements included competition between men; the claim that ‘people must like it if they do it’ (made alongside the seemingly contradictory expectation that it will be painful for women); and, crucially, normalisation of coercion and ‘accidental’ penetration. It seemed that men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners.

Conclusions Young people's narratives normalised coercive, painful and unsafe anal heterosex. This study suggests an urgent need for harm reduction efforts targeting anal sex to help encourage discussion about mutuality and consent, reduce risky and painful techniques and challenge views that normalise coercion."

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:32

" think people assuming that women dont actually like anal sex and get no pleasure from it, and are entirely victims of it, doesnt actually help anyone."

No-one has said this Confused

We are talking about the report in the OP which was about 16-18 year olds and anal sex and had some really disturbing conclusions. What is your view on the report?

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:26

who knows? Seems pretty popular.

grimbletart · 20/08/2014 12:26

What sort of sex is academic really. What is needed is for boys to be taught to respect consent and that nagging for something a girl doesn't want to do is not consent, and for girls to understand that they do not have to do anything just because it's 'cool' or an immature adolescent boy is a nagging prat.

I ranted about this earlier because what makes me angry is the fact that some/many? girls today when equality is more or less accepted as a principle by any but the darkest of cave dwellers don't seem to have the belief in equality or the self esteem to make their own decisions.

I and my friends clearly recall being accused of being frigid or being prudes because we did not go along with some 16 year olds' fantasies. And our attitude was "so what"? We will do what we want to do and won't do what we don't and if you don't like it, on your bike.

But then we were the generation that made ourselves extremely unpopular with the patriarchy by demanding equal pay and equal job opportunities. So maybe we still had a streak of post war toughness about us.

Don't expect anyone to particularly agree with me. But that's tough too. Smile

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 12:11

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Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:07

I dont think my friends growing up were as much into anal or shaving pubes, but i dont think it was much different apart from that

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:06

i think people assuming that women dont actually like anal sex and get no pleasure from it, and are entirely victims of it, doesnt actually help anyone.
The issue is consent. Rape and coercian is never ok.
Asking a partner to try something is ok. Wanting a specific kind of sex is ok. There is a line somewhere that is crossed because teenagers are notoriously oversexed, risk takers and lack boundaries and want to fit in. Its a dangerous combination, but it was no different when i started having sex in the early 90s.

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 11:53

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 11:51

im a sex positive third wave feminist and i dont think there has always been pressure on girls from boys and even peer pressure from other girls to mature sexually before they might want to.
I cant entirely protect my sons or daughter from whatever new sex craze is fashionable when theyre of an age. Nor can I protect them from rape.
I can only go on and on about consent which I do and will continue to.
Im not anti porn, although I am aware of the issues with it these days and won't shy away from discussing it realistically. I dont think there is an epidemic of girls being anally raped. I think teenage years are full of coercive behaviour from both genders more than at anyother time in life, and the worries about permissive and sexually dangerous attitudes have been around forever in various forms.

To be any more scared for your children now tgan at any other point in history is ridiculous. Children are believed much more than ever

NewEraNewMindset · 20/08/2014 11:31

I think it's exceptionally important to be really open about sex with out teenagers and talk about porn and how ridiculous it is that boys are assuming that these girls are enjoying it when they are being paid to endure it.

If we can burst the bubble of porn being held up as a sex manual whilst trying to empower teenage girls to choose their own sex lives when they are ready and not bow down to peer pressure, then we are halfway there.

I came from quite a repressed family where even though I could talk about pretty much anything with my Mum, sex not so much. My father was also very old fashioned and pretty strict in that area. I am the total opposite with my partner, we talk about sex a lot and I tell him if I think our sex life is slipping or the foreplay is disappearing. I'm hoping that we will keep a fairly free dialogue as my son gets older and we will be able to discuss stuff with him.

Maybe I'm dreaming but I'm hoping he will recognise porn as a wank tool only and not be expecting his future girlfriends to be a size 8 mute with a penchant for gang bangs.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 20/08/2014 10:18

I hate the innocence of sex being stolen from our young people

I also hate that the idea of sex as something pleasurable is stolen from girls.

19th century: Endure sex for the sake of your husband
21th century: Act like a pornstar for the sake of your male partner

Still a prostitution model of sex (someone joylessly performing for the other) between men and women is seen as ideal by men.

weatherall · 20/08/2014 08:07

I agree with tiwe sexual liberation has been hijacked.

I had quite a 'colourful' sex life back in the late 90s/early 00s. Anal was something we had heard of and it was mentioned on occasion but it was still taboo. There was no expectation of it. I did try it 2 or 3 times but it was seen as something to experiment with as a novelty, not part of a regular sex life.

Anal does change the dynamics of sex from something mutually enjoyable to something a man (because it does seem to be a het thing, not something lesbians have embraced) does to a woman. There doesn't seem to be a reversal, like women using dildos on men's anuses.

It's pornification and rapey. Why would a woman consent to something that she will get no sexual pleasure from and could cause her damage unless there was some form of coercion?

I really fear for my DCs, and this whole generation growing up like this.

diggerdigsdogs · 20/08/2014 06:52

I was born mid 80s and sexually active from 2000. Boys my age (still in school) never pressured me for anal. Older men (Uni age and mid 20s) always did. In fact EVERY guy who pressured me into trying it had to be told to stop multiple times and I had to move away before they listened. Awful (I don't feel awful btw - I mean that they wouldn't hear No stop is awful).

I read a fair amount of romantic /erotic fiction and novels. Not online sex stories I mean books with characters who have graphic sex.

What I've noticed is how themes have moved from virgins/pure women/good girls that were often chock full of coersion, 'romantic' rape and flat out rape to some great stories with very strong women who have agency and enjoy sex, have sexual histories and know what they want. However, I've noticed in the past maybe 18 months more stories with anal sex and anal play that is always enjoyed by the women an brings them to orgasm. So is the male gaze infiltrating women's romance or is anal sex just normal?

Of my close friends I'm the only one who has never had anal sex (apart from trying it and hating it but not completing as it were) and does not do anal sex as part of my general sexual activity. Most of my friends are in their 30s.

Loveneverfails · 19/08/2014 23:26

I cant imagine being anally raped, vaginal was bad enough and still bothers me 20 years later.

If porn had shown it like it does now, he would have anally raped me I am sure.

arghhhhhh

I hate the innocence of sex being stolen from our young people

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 23:22

I think the poster who said anal has become the way vaginal sex was in the 70s - pestering, badgering, 'persuading', coercing women into sex they don't want and in some cases, rape, is spot on.

ScarlettlovesRhett · 19/08/2014 23:09

By normalising, I don't mean 'anal sex is wrong' etc, I mean promoting the idea that 'all women love it, and all real men have their "Brown Wings" '.

(Which is the phrase that was bandied around during the reign of the 'lads mags' - yuk, yuk, yuk).