Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 21:48

Interested to read this thread.
When I was 17/18 I started seeing a guy I was at school with. He wanted to have sex. I was a virgin and petrified. I let him try it once and I was so scared and tense he couldn't get it in properly (tmi sorry). I was sobbing and in pain but wanted to please him. So next time he said "well if it won't work that way I'll try this".... Turned me over and anally raped me.
The horrendous thing for me was I was so relieved to find something that he enjoyed that we could do and mean I didn't have to panic about normal sex for a while, I let him do it a number of times. I didn't understand at the time how abnormal this was. He used to spit on me and pull my hair until it came out in his hands during.

I still have flashbacks. I've had counselling. It has to be the most shameful thing that's ever happened to me and my poor husband still has to cuddle me while I cry during sex sometimes - I now tend to associate it with pain and violence.

My point is... What is consent? I thought I was "doing the right thing" by not showing him the door straight away. I tried telling my parents but neither knew what to do. I think they thought if they banned me from seeing him I'd want to see him more.

As a mum of a daughter now I am going to do everything within my power to educate her about all aspects of sex and relationships but also try to raise her to understand she can say no. To anyone. At any time. And that some attention from a guy is not always better than no attention. As women we aren't put on this earth to "please men" and that whatever goes on in the bedroom is borne of respect and should be what both parties want and enjoy.

Sorry way tmi and bit personal but as someone who was in this exact situ I felt I wanted to get that off my chest. FWIW I think Wicked has a point and for some women this is enjoyable and something they themselves might instigate but for me has affected me ever since.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:45

Where have I suggested that all women should do anal sex, or all should enjoy it? I don't care what other women choose to do as long as the decision is their free choice. I am the one being told that my free choice is part of the problem.
So if I just keep quiet and pretend not to like it, I somehow support young women better?

We just tell our teens, just don't do it, it's a really bad idea, it will hurt, you won't like it, it could do you damage. Boys shouldn't ask, girls should always say no. I know that lots of gay men enjoy it, but girls really don't, so just don't do it.
Problem solved.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:41

At least 4 of your recent posts have talked a lot about ongoing continuos consent, enthusiastic yesses all the way through and so on.

eg "If she is not saying YES YES YES, then the answer is no"

I think you have a rather simplistic take on consent as well TBH. In the context of an early or casual encounter, this may well be a reasonable message, ish. In the context of a longer term relationship, or one with different parameters, that may not be true at all.

Also "YES YES YES" have you been watching when harry met sally again? Most men are really not that good in bed.

I think you need to refine your ideas a bit quite frankly.

Iggly · 20/08/2014 21:39

This is exactly why something has to be done to make it harder for people to access porn via the internet. It is far too easy. Far too easy.

If people want porn online they need to opt in. Mobile phone companies can restrict access to open over the data network but for some reason can't or won't over WiFi. Maybe that's for the internet providers to do. In which case they should.

Adults should be teaching children about consent be it parents or teachers etc.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:38

Yes Seven, its funny that - despite its apparent popularity (according to Mostwicked) that particular practice is hardly part of mainstream discourse.

In fact, you hardly ever hear about young women talking about ripping their boyfriends a new arsehole, coercing them, wearing them down, persuading them to try it, getting them to 'overcome their resistance', using it to signify their conquest, etc, etc, do you? I wonder why.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:35

Oh I forgot about earlier, when I pointed out that it isn't boys who are being encouraged, persuaded and coerced into engaging in potentially riskier / painful sexual practices in het relationships, even though clearly there is the possibility they might enjoy it.

The answer was: "There very much is. Pegging is becoming very popular among many men." Really? We are talking about 16-18yo here. Do you have evidence that the incidence of pegging in het relationships in 16-18 yo is massively on the increase? That boys are being coerced by girls into performing these acts? Or are you taking the fact that some sexually mature adults enjoy this stuff (and let's face it sticking things up bloke's arses is hardly newfangled, and with good reason) and extrapolating that to Oh Well everyone who's anyone is at is so that's great.

Would be very interested to see the report equivalent to the one in the OP that boys are being put in that position by girls wielding dildos and strap-ons.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 21:33

99.9% of women will hate it, you know that for a fact do you?

Facts are funny things really. Like you think it is a fact that anal sex "done right" won't hurt. I wouldn't say it was fact that any kind of sex won't hurt but I especially think it is not a fact there is a correct way to use a bodily orifice that billions of years of evolution created for the removal of bodily waste as a penis receptacle.

You might as well say punching someone in the face done right doesn't hurt.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:33

It's not the boys ending up in hospital. The onus should be on them to stop hurting girls.
Which is exactly what I have been saying, we need to teach them to stop pressurising girls into doing things they don't want to do.

Plus consent is contextual. You have to understand what you are consenting to and the risks. Just like other sexual activities.
Which requires education. At the moment they are giving in to doing sex acts they don't want to do and don't understand.

Anyone who thinks exposing young children to copious amounts of porn doesn't affect them is nuts, quite frankly.
I don't think anyone has promoted porn to adults, let alone children.
It doesn't stop them seeing it though, so we have to help them understand what they might see.

And of course the blokes are often getting consent, after a fashion. They are going on about it until she says yes, telling her that everyone else is doing it and they like it so why not, that they are boring if they don't give it a try, why not etc etc etc
Which is absolutely not ever consent - that is the message that needs to be given loud and clear, to all boys as they grown into young men. When they learn, that going on about it until she gives in, or using emotional blackmail (if you loved me you would), or peer pressure (all the other girls do) or ANY other type of coercion, including alcohol or drugs, IS NOT CONSENT, then we might see a reduction in this type of behaviour.
If she is not saying YES YES YES, then the answer is no, you do not have her consent.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:32

AF, I thought you had left?!

I think the rise in expected anal intercourse is a symptom of the malaise, not the actual problem in itself. Which is male entitlement and expectation.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:31

And yy AF!

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:31

It seems unlike the rest of us, Mostwicked read an article that said 16-18 year old girls really are desperate to have anal sex but need help to do it right.
How extraordinary to interpret the findings in that way.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:31

In fact I'll rephrase my question.

I wonder why you are so keen for women to have anal sex?

AnyFucker · 20/08/2014 21:29

Most importantly why is MW so keen for 16 yo girls to enjoy anal sex ?

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:29

You see some of what you says makes sense but then a whole bunch of it is assuming that people on this thread hold views that actually they don't, and then arguing against them.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:27

Yeah thanks for telling us what consent is about MostWicked. None of us have ever thought about that. Ever.

Just wondering why you are so keen for women to enjoy anal sex MostWicked?

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:25

MostWicked you seem to keep arguing against things that people have not said.

e.g.

"Banning porn isn't the solution". Who brought up the idea of banning porn on this thread? You. So you are arguing against something that no-one had at that point suggested (unless my search facility is up the spout). Furthermore, the idea of "banning porn" is incredibly vague (what sort of porn? all of it? topless stuff? written porn?) and pretty impossible, given that the internet is a global entity with little control due to it's nature. So you are accusing people on the thread, of calling for something that no-one has said, and that I think people would be pretty unlikely to say as bluntly as that for the reasons I just gave because we're not on the whole, you know, stupid and going around shouting "ban porn" while reading 50 shades of grey and failing to understand anything about the nature of the internet.

So, you know. Stop arguing against things that people aren't saying.

People have not said "Ban Porn"
Nor have they said that women who enjoy consensual anal sex are "disgusting"
Nor have they suggested that a good way of sorting this problem out would be to tell children "scare stories" about various sex acts

It is really annoying please stop it.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:20

I agree with Chaos too

But I see where MostWicked is coming from - However I think that you are not likely to be a 16-18 year old girl looking for first sexual experiences?
I suspect that you are perfectly able to give or withhold consent Grin

Yy that it is the attitudes of the male of the species that needs addressing - IMVstronglyheldO not just in the sexual arena, but in many other social encounter.
Mutual respect and consideration would make issues of consent less of an important discussion.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 21:20

Oh my god.....

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:17

Anal sex, done properly, should not hurt. How is stating that as a fact, pressuring anyone into doing it? If it does hurt, then the people doing it need to stop immediately because something it wrong, and the thing that might be wrong, is the girls might not want to do it.
Girls are doing it expecting it to hurt - they need to know that pain is a sign that something is wrong and that means stop.

Consent is NOT passive. That's part of the problem, there is a lack of understanding about what consent is. That is what we should be teaching our boys. The absence of a yes or no, is not consent. That's exactly what the videos I linked to earlier stress. Saying nothing means no. Saying, 'ok, if you want to' means no. Consent MUST be active and enthusiastic to mean anything at all. Any less means no. There must be no room for confusion or misunderstandings or coercion or diminished capacity.

And banning porn is not the solution because it is completely, totally and utterly unworkable, so even if in theory, it's the perfect answer, it is not a solution because it is not possible.
Education IS possible.

What's wrong with telling young women and men that 99.9% of women will hate this and men shouldn't ask for it. Young men should be told that the very act of asking for it makes them boundary violators and borderline, if not actual, rapists.
What's wrong with it is that it is lies.
99.9% of women will hate it, you know that for a fact do you? Whilst it will likely be a minority preference, you cannot claim that 99.9% of women will hate it. I dare say that most women aren't into BDSM, but some are and actively enjoy it.
And the act of asking for it is borderline rape?
Boundary violators? Whose boundaries? Yours? Who gave you the right to decide what other people shouldn't do?
We cannot lie to our teenagers, they are not stupid. Tell them that most women don't do it because they don't want to. Tell them that what they see in porn is not real life. Porn cuts out all of the boring bits, including consent and foreplay. Porn actors are paid to pretend to enjoy it. Tell them the risks, tell them that it is not something that anyone should every do if they don't actively want to do it. Tell them that any sexual act that happens, requires the active and enthusiastic consent of both people. Tell them that anal sex is more complicated than vaginal sex and that you can't just leap into it or you could hurt yourself. Tell them where they can find the factual information that you don't know.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 21:12

YY Chaos. Exactly what I was getting at. It is the attitude of the boys and men that needs tackling.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:06

I agree with Chaos.

If a person does something to another person that they expect to hurt them, that is violent, isn't it. The boys in the report expected to hurt the girls, the girls expected to be hurt. That is violence. We could at this point talk about how many people enjoy a bit of pain in their consensual sex lives. Some people enjoy a lot of pain in their consensual sex lives. Which is up to them of course. But again something I would argue is best left to more sexually mature experienced people, rather than something to have a crack at straight off the bat.

And of course the blokes are often getting consent, after a fashion. They are going on about it until she says yes, telling her that everyone else is doing it and they like it so why not, that they are boring if they don't give it a try, why not etc etc etc

So in a way they know all about consent. The type of consent which means something in our society i.e. "she said yes" at some point and so that is good enough.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 20:58

I don't see how you can say that it's nothing to do with consent. These boys are failing to gain consent. Some don't seem to think that it matters. We must teach them that consent is everything. Without consent, you are not having sex, you are committing rape.

You proved my point in a way. The article has nothing to do with consent, it is about men's entitlement, male violence and male privilege. The fact that you enjoy it means precisely nothing in the face of that. It is in every way about male violence, the lack of consent is merely incidental.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 20:52

Clearly the fact that children are watching what would have been considered 40 years ago to be pretty hardcore porn from the age of about 11 is going to affect how their sexuality and sexual relationships develop.

I mean it's just completely obvious isn't it?

There has been study after study after study showing the frequent porn users get desensitised (sometimes literally!) watching ever more extreme things to get the same impact. Ever more extreme in the context of het porn generally translates to ever more extreme (higher risk of pain and/or injury) for the females.

There have been studies that show that regular exposure to porn messes with the way bits of the brain develop/are (early stages I guess but still it's still being looked at).

There are studies with young people saying they feel pressured into doing stuff because of porn.

Anyone who thinks exposing young children to copious amounts of porn doesn't affect them is nuts, quite frankly.

If an adult shows a child porn it is considered grooming FGS. You can't get more straightforward than that.

scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2014 20:48

Plus consent is contextual. You have to understand what you are consenting to and the risks. Just like other sexual activities.

expatinscotland · 20/08/2014 20:48

Yes, just send them all to Wicked first so they will learn to love it up the arse.