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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 22:24

I suspect there will be page after page about how it is society's fault

That might just be because it is. Centuries of the whole of society being geared to men's needs, men's wants, men's desires had finally led to a rape culture, where women are always lying and porn culture, where women have to be up for anything all the time in every hole and in every conceivable fashion or they are frigid and ridiculous.

Educating boys about consent was mentioned further upthread, telling girls more about it as well. But education on consent only goes as far as the bedroom door really. Porn has shown boys that girls are lying if they say no, that, while anal sex hurts, girls secretly love it and just need to be persuaded.

Anal sex carries risks far greater than vaginal sex or oral sex. Vaginal sex rarely causes fecal incontinence, anal sex often does if practiced often enough, so I hope you're keeping up with your PFEs most, or in the not too distant, you'll be crapping yourself, literally. Boys who know it's going to hurt, really aren't going to give a shit if it actually does, so maybe some educational pictures for both girls and boys showing such delights as anal fissures, complete rectal prolapse and even some incomplete ones might put them off. Telling them the risks of rectal tears might be good as well, you can get some truly amazing infections from them.

Making them watch one of the documentaries exposing the real porn industry would probably be educational as well.

None of this is going to make a shred of difference though really is it? Because this isn't about girls being all lovely and enjoying anal sex in a consensual relationship setting, this is about boys doing something they know will hurt at girls they don't really give a shit about about. It's male violence. It's entitlement. So tell me, in your lovely sex positive life, how do we combat male violence? By having anal sex with them? Or will we have to go as far as fisting now?

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:24

1/3 not 1.3

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:16

www.details.com/sex-relationships/sex-and-other-releases/200707/anal-sex-new-deal-breaker

I was looking up statistics for women since I was shocked to see only a 1.3 of gay men are bothering with sex and found this article. It's fucking vile but makes for interesting reading, I think it could be triggering so I want to make sure anyone who clicks it is aware of that though.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 20/08/2014 22:14

puppymouse Sad Flowers

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:14

Sorry that thing about pulling hair was an observation, not a question for puppy.

Just re-read and it didn't look right.

EverythingCounts · 20/08/2014 22:13

Just horrible and depressing.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:10

puppymouse Thanks

FairPhyllis · 20/08/2014 22:09

puppymouse That is horrendous, I am so sorry that happened to you.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:08

I know that lots of gay men enjoy it, but girls really don't, so just don't do it.

It really doesn't matter what gay men do because we aren't men. Confused I haven't got a gspot in my ass. And it isn't teenage boys that are being discussed here it is women as usual who are being pressured to be any port in a storm for any fucker with a cock

In the Journal of Sexual Medicine, researchers from Indiana University and George Mason University surveyed nearly 25,000 gay and bisexual men in an effort to better understand how they experience sex. The study hopes to combat "the almost exclusive focus" on HIV in most academic research on gay male sexual behavior, as well as to increase understanding of the "diversity and complexity of these men’s sexual lives." To do that, they asked gay and bisexual-identified men ages 18 to 87 to chart their most recent sexual experience. Did it involve kissing, cuddling, masturbation, oral sex, anal sex? Did it happen with a boyfriend, spouse, stranger, or sex worker? Was it in a car, a home, a club? Were condoms used?

The results: Despite the popular perception, "sexual behaviors involving the anus were least common," researchers found. Around 75 percent of participants reported kissing their partners, giving oral sex, and/or receiving oral sex in their most recent sexual encounters. By contrast, only 36 percent of men reporting receiving anal sex and 34 percent of men reporting giving it. Half of participants who engaged in anal sex employed a condom. The most common series of activities in the encounter—reported by 16 percent of men—involved "holding their partner romantically, kissing partner on mouth, solo masturbation, masturbating partner, masturbation by partner, and genital–genital contact."

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:05

Oh shit no I got that wrong

So far the suggestions are:

Ban Porn
Tell women who have sex they are disgusting
Tell children lies about sex in order to put them off because that is bound to work

I think that was it

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:03

yes because us 10 or so people on this thread have the collective power to change centuries of patriarchy, take on the multi-billion dollar porn industry etc etc etc

So far the suggestions have been better / more education in schools from a younger age and making porn opt-in. There may have been some others.

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 22:01

Fine, I will leave you all to it, to work out all the answers for yourselves.
I'll pop back in tomorrow to see if anyone has come up with any ideas at all, about what we can say to our teenagers, or steps that we can take that will actually make a difference. I suspect there will be page after page about how it is society's fault with not a single tangible solution in sight.
Good night

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 22:00

So if you teach that to children it is clearly so unrealistic that they will not listen to you.

Puppymouse I am so sorry what he did to you. This thread and the report must be an awful read.

Pulling hair is also a thing from porn isn't it.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 22:00

Happy, enthusiastic, exploring teenagers will soon figure out how they can do what to give and receive pleasure - they do not need instructions manuals as much as educations about self-respect, self-esteem, boundaries (that's for the boys, to not allow themselves by peer pressure being manipulated in to something they may not chose to do off their own volition), respect of others.
Anybody can google 'anal sex' and find instruction - that is NOT what the adults in young people's lives need to teach. Answer questions (if they come - I'd've died before asking either one of my parents about anal sex and I had a good relationship with them with competent and non-embarrassed chats about how human bodies work) and encourage them to look after each other. The rest will follow.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:58

Not in the sense of females going "YES YES YES" MostWicked. That is a simplistic idea of what continuous consent looks like, to say the least.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 21:57

Puppymouse I am so sorry that happened to you.

PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 21:55

Not at all Florafox I'm not easily offended over this.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 21:55

Huh?

So are you saying that you want schools to specifically give instruction to children about how to have anal sex and make it less likely to hurt them?

What other sex acts are you going to give out manuals for?

Surely the lesson should be with anything to do with sex, be respectful, be careful, if you both like it fine, if you don't both like it not fine. That would cover it off surely? And then talk about STDs and pregnancy and bits in / on people's bodies that can feel nice. Or something. That was pretty much on the fly.

The list of sex acts that are a bit tricky that young people might want to engage in is endless I am not sure that instructions are the way forward. Surely if they want to try something safely there is an age appropriate net resource they can look it up in? Schools could point to that. In my day we went and read the joy of sex in the bookshop when no-one was looking Grin

MostWicked · 20/08/2014 21:53

So Seven, do you not think that ongoing continuous consent is important then?

I agree that what that consent looks like may change over time in a relationship, as a couple learn to recognise each other's body language, but for me, continuous consent is vital.

I said YES YES YES, as a way of clearly demonstrating the difference between a non-consensual 'yes, ok then' and an active, clear, unambiguous consensual yes, that boys should be told is required for there to be consent.

PacificDogwood · 20/08/2014 21:53

Puppymouse Thanks

Its not about the report, silly, the important thing is to discuss Mostwicked's preferences.
Yes, this is getting a bit… tedious.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 21:52

Its not about the report, silly, the important thing is to discuss Mostwicked's preferences.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:51

Puppymouse I'm sorry you went through that. I hope my cross-post wasn't insensitive.

FairPhyllis · 20/08/2014 21:50

I haven't commented on this so far because I have been too utterly depressed by reading the report.

The fact that boys expect girls to be hurt by anal sex and then do it anyway says something unbelievably disturbing about how a generation of boys are growing up seeing girls as non-people.

I am also very concerned about how this may be contributing to eroticising violence against women for young men.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:48

Shit, very few of them like.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 21:48

mostwicked everything you say is exactly the problem with third wave "sex pozzy" "feminism". It's all about "don't tell me what to do", "who are you to tell me what to do". Meanwhile young women as a class are being pressured from young men as a class to do things they don't want to do. Your solutions are focussed on individuals and you are ignoring the context of how this is occurring. You seem more exercised about the idea that we should tell young people that anal sex is a bad idea than about the environment of porn, male entitlement and male violence that is leading to young women being coerced into something very few of them hate. Hmm