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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 21/08/2014 14:05

Is it?

KneeQuestion · 21/08/2014 14:00

Anal sex carries risks far greater than vaginal sex or oral sex. Vaginal sex rarely causes fecal incontinence, anal sex often does if practiced often enough, so I hope you're keeping up with your PFEs most, or in the not too distant, you'll be crapping yourself, literally. Boys who know it's going to hurt, really aren't going to give a shit if it actually does, so maybe some educational pictures for both girls and boys showing such delights as anal fissures, complete rectal prolapse and even some incomplete ones might put them off. Telling them the risks of rectal tears might be good as well, you can get some truly amazing infections from them

Thats bollocks.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 21/08/2014 12:14

I am amazed at the mother who watched the porn with her son. That's some hard ass parenting, I hope I'd have it in me to do the same, but suspect I couldn't face it.

I think when the times comes I will explain to my sons that the majority of times anal sex is painful for women. That it is often dangerous and can even cause a prolapse. I'll get as graphic (possibly show pictures) as I can. Also, (and I hope this won't need spelling to them, but I absolutely will spell it out anyway) that if you love someone you want them to feel good and them "proving" their devotion in a way that causes them any kind of emotional or physical comfort is abusive and shitty.

DD I will make sure she realizes the risks involved and that if a boy asks her to do she should explain the risks and that if he still thinks she should do it he is a nasty abusive piece of shit and that sex won't be fun with him and it will be painful and dangerous.

I can't imagine knowing my daughter could be pushed in to that sort of thing and I am almost as horrified by the fact that my sons could become those kind of men. It scares the hell of me.

JustTheRightBullets · 21/08/2014 11:32

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HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 21/08/2014 11:05

The problem with teaching values is that everybody's values are different and parents to get v offended if whatever is being taught is not in keeping with theirs.

YY

This is how well meaning sex ed lessons can turn into a how to manual that seems to suggest everyone should be brave and go for it!

JohnFarleysRuskin · 21/08/2014 11:05

Don't most young people know about consent? It's kind of obvious.

Did you bother reading the article being discussed or not? I'm going to guess not.

PacificDogwood · 21/08/2014 10:56

gussie, I am taking parenting note here although I'd rather never sit through that, coward that I am.

The problem with teaching values is that everybody's values are different and parents to get v offended if whatever is being taught is not in keeping with theirs.
That's why I think it should go back to the basics of human interaction: teach consideration, respect, treading carefully and with kindness.

I absolutely think that abstinence should be an option, but it needs spelling out: "It is ok to not want full-on sex" or in fact any sexual contact.
I thought kissing with tongues was really horrible aged 15, for instance, so why do it?!

Consent is a really important thing to be taught, meaningful consent. IMO when it's right, all parties know it's right. When it's not right the onus needs to be on the male to make it right, even if that means backing off, poor thing… Hmm

CaptChaos · 21/08/2014 10:52

gussie I think your friend's approach was entirely brilliant.

CaptChaos · 21/08/2014 10:50

Just - you're absolutely right.

It's still a complete crock though, don't you think?

gussiegrips · 21/08/2014 10:49

Consent's the issue because, as some people have made clear - there's more to sex than missionary.

Consent means teaching boys that assault is not sexy.

My friend found her 15 year old son watching some brutal porn on his phone. She confiscated the phone, but, the next day, made him sit and watch the film with her.

"look at her face, do you think she's enjoying that? Do you think she's able to focus? So, if she looks drugged, are we watching a crime?"

He'd never looked the woman's face. Why would he?

I'd give her mum of the year - great parenting.

Mind you, she said she was mortified.

JustTheRightBullets · 21/08/2014 10:49

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HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 21/08/2014 10:45

I think the short coming of sex ed lessons is that they are basically value neutral. If they start setting boundaries and defining norms, which is what the children are desperate for imho, then someone pops up and takes offence. So, in the end they become a smorgasbord of things people sometimes choose to do, no judgement attached. To the kids, it looks like a check list.

CaptChaos · 21/08/2014 10:42

I wish people would stop focusing on consent.

How about abstinence?

How about a mixture of the 2, but a mixture that takes into account that children will do what they see and that, as porn is now ubiquitous, your DS will have seen it.

Consent is not obvious, I'm afraid. A girl walking into a hotel with a man while paralytic drunk apparently gives reasonable doubt as to her not consenting in court. Lots of consent chat from a very early age for both girls and boys is the only way to ensure they have the tools they need.

DownstairsMixUp · 21/08/2014 10:22

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expatinscotland · 21/08/2014 10:03

And to say NO to things they don't want to do or try, a d recognise that people pressuring you are abusive.

expatinscotland · 21/08/2014 10:02

Because it's possible to have sex, lots and lots even :o and have plenty of self-respect.

Some people do not need to attach love to it.

AliciaBotty · 21/08/2014 09:51

I wish people would stop focusing on consent.

How about abstinence? I'd far rather my daughter simply said no to weird, violent, degrading acts in the bedroom and I hope my son has more respect for himself and any future girlfriends than to suggest it.

Don't most young people know about consent? It's kind of obvious. Even rapists know, they just choose to ignore it. I think too much consent chat actually pressures girls into thinking they should be consenting.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 21/08/2014 09:34

That is why I feel sex education should focus more on relationships, respect, mutual consideration, pleasure etc rather than the mechanics of sex

Yes definitely, that is what is needed. A lot of it, to counter porn and misogyny in media.

PacificDogwood · 21/08/2014 07:59

Lessons about consent start at home. They start with not making your DC kiss grandma if they don't want to. They start with teaching about gentle hands and kind words. They go on to children making choices about their bodies, if they don't want to strip down for a bath, then they bath with clothes on. Treating animals kindly.

That.
Absolutely that.

I too see where you are coming from, grimble, but I personally don't think that repression was in any way helpful. It did cause untold misery for many, but yes, a certain 'innocence' has been lost.
That is why I feel sex education should focus more on relationships, respect, mutual consideration, pleasure etc rather than the mechanics of sex (remember a hilarious biology lesson in the 80s aged ?14-15 when we were shown condoms and how they went on a banana and how much water a tampon could soak up. We were absolutely wheezing with mirth and mortification - I am not sure how much of that changed anybody's sexual behaviour).

WhentheRed · 21/08/2014 01:40

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gussiegrips · 21/08/2014 00:29

That's exactly right, when you're tickling a child and they say "no, no, stop it" you have to stop. If you keep going, because you know they are enjoying it and that tickling's fun then you're planting a seed that "no" doesn't need to be listened to.

Teaching about consent extends beyond the classroom and into the antenatal classes, well, you know what I mean. It's a huge and complex issue, but, guidance for parents is utterly absent.

AlpacaYourThings · 20/08/2014 23:24

That's an interesting approach, CaptChaos I hated giving aunties and uncles kisses and hugs goodbye as a child. My parents always forced me as it was seen as good manners.

PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 23:23

Thank you for all the supportive comments.

I think the observations I have made since have been largely around just how naive some guys are about sex. And completely ignorant about the female body. They don't seem to think they need to know?

My first time after that nightmare I was so frightened the guy accused me ("nicely"/patronisingly) of being a virgin. I actually laughed at him after everything that happened to me in that previous relationship. But in his mind because it was difficult and uncomfortable for me I was clearly inexperienced and lying!

I don't know what the answer is but porn is toxic Hmm

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 23:17

Lessons about consent start at home. They start with not making your DC kiss grandma if they don't want to. They start with teaching about gentle hands and kind words. They go on to children making choices about their bodies, if they don't want to strip down for a bath, then they bath with clothes on. Treating animals kindly.

By the time children get to school it's almost too late to 'teach them about consent' if they have been taught that their choices around their bodies can be violated in small ways, then what hope have we of teaching them to expect better in big things?

MrsMarigold · 20/08/2014 23:06

Crikey I've read this and am terrified for my children. Back when I was 12 we were told by a very ancient teacher at my school that premarital sex was a mortal sin! I'm 38 and I remember when I was about 20 I heard odd jokes about "brown wings" etc and knew of a guy who was apparently into anal sex but that was it.

Maybe Mumsnet/Woman's Hour should campaign for our children to be taught about consent, grimbletart I agree with you but consent and respect can be taught without having to reveal everything and these lessons start in infancy.