Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
Stealthpolarbear · 19/08/2014 19:40

This is sickening.ive never felt so old or out of touch (I'm 34)

AtSea1979 · 19/08/2014 19:40

Consent is such a huge issue. The lack of informed consent for a medical procedure would cause uproar and probably a lawsuit. But it seems consent to sex with a partner is the absence of a forceful "No".
I know when I found out DP was cheating on me, I felt I had been forced due to this lack of information beforehand. But this, wow, depressing and very scarey for DC.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 19:38

Our sed ed lesson on consent was on "how to say no" - looking back how ridiculous and victim blaming and awful is that?? I mean presumably they also covered "respect the no" but I don't remember that part, so it can't have been as in depth or hard hitting (or possibly I just didn't feel it relevant to me).

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 19:37

expat, my experience is the same kind of timeline as you suggest: late 90s things had become darker Sad

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 19:36

I too was a teen in the 80s and never had this expectation of anal or other hardcore sex practices put to me.
Then again, I grew up in Germany, early education about reproductive function and sex education was much more of a given and the naked body generally less of a taboo.

I too see young teens in my professional life (more girls looking for contraception, some boys worried about their bits) and the expectation has changed dramatically - even in the 20 years I have been in practice (which coincides nicely with the easy availability of violent porn and the objectifying of women depicted as 'enjoyment') things have changed for the worse.

I totally agree that my boys needing to 'get' what consent means, is really important to me. DS1 is 11 so still thinks 'girls are stoopid', but even DS4(4) is told only to kiss people who want to be kissed (he is an enthusiastic and slobbery kisser…)

I do believe that this seemingly casual acceptance of damaging and violent sexual practices is damaging to the men engaged in it too. Why on earth would a man need to feel the 'own' a woman??
Rhetorical question - naive, I know.
Angry

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 19:35

Interesting different experiences.

I was putting it about extremely merrily Grin from about 1990 to 2004 and only 1 bloke tried to head in that direction as far as I can remember and took erm no for an answer.

I wonder if there is a difference even in area you live and stuff as well as age?

The report is incredibly depressing. The idea that young men (and older ones) are happy to coerce girls and women into engaging in sexual acts which they expect to cause them pain is just appalling. WTF is the matter with them.

I think we need more education around consent and decent fucking human decency everywhere immediately as others have said.

In terms of sex, things seem to be going backwards for girls at a horrifying rate.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 19:32

I was a teen in the 80s and do not have any experience of men badgering for anal, 'slipping it in' or any such.

But when I became single in 1999 there was a definite shift! Men regularly asking or pestering for it, expecting it, making out you were frigid if you didn't want it.

FloraFox · 19/08/2014 19:31

There's no way this is unconnected with internet porn. The BMJ is reporting on this now because it is massively more prevalent than in the 80s or 90s. That's not to say some people were not experiencing this pressure but to nowhere near the same extent as today. It's just wishful thinking to believe this is nothing to do with the prevalence of anal sex / visibly coerced sex in porn e.g. the porn performer Sasha Grey saying "rip open all my holes" and being interviewed in Marie Claire. Third wave feminism has also contributed to this by taking on the cool-girl, do anything men you like as a feminist position.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/08/2014 19:30

What disturbs me is that I've heard people using a lot of language to do with deliberately causing pain.

When I was under 18 I don't think it was really something people much did (though what do I know, was a very boring teenager!). But it was talked about in a giggly way along with all sorts of other acrobatic and/or risque things.

No-one I remember was talking about 'slamming the back door in' or that sort of thing - it was just seen as kinky, rather than liable to cause harm.

And that seems to be backed up by that link. I find it really disturbing theyd even know it could hurt people, because when you think, that suggests a fair degree of knowledge, which honestly I don't think we had. I think we would have tried, pretended it was great and then lied. Which honestly, is relatively healthy!

cruikshank · 19/08/2014 19:26

Depressing, but just about what I would have expected for a generation raised on unlimited porn where women are simply compliant orifices waiting around for a man to 'own' them. And morethan, I disagree strongly with our post. This was in no way the expectation when I was in my teens in the 90s. Back then a bloke would think he'd got lucky if he got a finger-frig out of you. Now it's all shaved cunts and anal penetration due to men being given a completely false narrative of women's sexuality. I wonder how many of those young men surveyed would be hankering after a little back-door action if they knew the women they watched on-screen 'enjoying' it were only able to perform the acts they do because they're taking painkillers and know they can get their fissures sewn up at the company's expense, or that the only reason they want to perform the acts at all is because they were abused as children or are active drug addicts.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 19:22

I think it's definitely become more expected.

This here, however, is rape in a lot of cases.

morethanpotatoprints · 19/08/2014 19:21

I was a teen in the 80's and it was like this, but perhaps a bit more reserved.
Young people behaved like this but only spoke about it with mates. It wasn't reported about and as before internet there weren't discussion groups and social networking to inform everyone this is what young people did.
I agree that it was taboo, but people were still having anal sex and still informing their mates.
Maybe the expectation wasn't there as in the nice boys wouldn't ask the nice girls to do it, even though they were sexually active.
I think internet porn has normalised it and this is the problem with men/ young men acting like they do.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 19:17

It does. My kids are only little but that they really understand consent is top of my list.

beachyhead · 19/08/2014 19:16

I had heard from a friend who is a practising NHS consultant that injuries to young women as a result of anal sex are on the increase and there has been concern noted at the hospital he works at.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 19:14

campaign4consent on hold while they do their exams.

JustTheRightBullets · 19/08/2014 19:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 19:10

Consent isn't really on the nationAl curriculum iirc, gussie, I know there are some teens running a campaign to have it be taught about.

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 19:06

I came across this article via work -and, it's scared the beejeezus out me.

The undertone is that young men believe that consent isn't necessary for anal sex.

Terrifying. What is covered in sex ed about consent?

Showy · 19/08/2014 19:06

I was a teen in my 90s and went to uni before the advent of internet porn. One of my friends tried anal. It was taboo, none of us reported partners pushing for or expecting it.

Now, some of us are back out there post divorce, some of us have siblings and nieces out there and they all report the same stuff. Many men expect anal, most expect little to no pubic hair.

I worry for DD.

stinkingbishop · 19/08/2014 19:06

It's awful, isn't it. I have never been badgered (or actually even ASKED) for it apart from one relationship with a guy it transpired was heavily into porn/swinging et al. Different norms. He messed with mine too. Which is the point, isn't it. I felt I had to go along with all these things to show how cool I was. And it comes at a time in your life - teens/twenties - when your sense of your self and what you do/don't like just isn't solid enough.

I know the author of the paper and, horrifyingly, the BMJ article is a lot less provocative, for publication. The problem is even worse.

I have two little girls and I just want to put them in the world's comfiest tower, forever.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 18:59

How depressing.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 18:58

I know bland, it was completely ridiculous. To make it even more mad, actually being gay is not really the thrust of the insult either (hardly anyone my age actually thinks gay = bad), it's an more that if you say you don't like anal you are a closeted homophobes secretly wanting to have sex with men but lying about it and pretending to be straight iykwim.

We have the dubious honour of being the generation to grow up with the internet and fuck all parental controls so I kind of wouldn't be surprised if in twenty years time things have swung back the other way, though.

Okay i'm being super optimistic there.

thisisnotalovesong · 19/08/2014 18:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

stargirl1701 · 19/08/2014 18:45

Nor me, Bullets. I was a teen in the 90s too.

JustTheRightBullets · 19/08/2014 18:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.