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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
JohnFarleysRuskin · 19/08/2014 21:41

I agree with expat et al, as a mildly promiscuous teen in the late 80s, guys were always grateful, and I was never pushed for anything er off the beaten track?!

Single again ten years ago, I felt there had been a sexual shift (although not everyone for sure) and expectations were different.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:40

I'm sure I didn't ever get sent an erect cock shot. I know this because I thought that my first BF's penis was weird because it went 'up'.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:39

Bertie and Aplaca your comments just reminded me of another thread - can I ask you a question although it's rather irrelevant to the thread. of these cock shots, what % were erect?

Because, on the other thread the woman had been getting a lot and halfway through it turned out they were almost all flaccid and many of us were just like, well what's the fucking point of that?

So it's sort of just out of interest. Because potentially modern young men are even more weird than I could have imagined.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:35

Yes, I was a teen in the 00's and getting cock shots on teen chat sites or MSN (if I added someone I didn't know) was common place. My parents weren't internet savvy so I don't think they were aware of the risks.

DrunkenWhore · 19/08/2014 21:34

Stuff like this scares the shit out of me. I worry so much for DSD at 21 she's already been through so much shit and trauma at the hands of "men" (not real men in my eyes). I fear so much for my dds when they grow up and TBH really really hope they are gay.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:34

Oh, and I think your opinion is v fair: it's competitive showing off.
I see your nipple tassels and raise you my nipple clamps.

Not that any of that is wrong or to be discouraged, but it does not need to be bragged about. Just as I keep my vanilla habits to myself most of the time

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:33

See, Bertie, that's how I know how ancient I am: I have never ever seen a cock photo that I had not invited Grin

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 21:30

(Warning, possibly not a very fair or balanced opinion) IME "sex-positive feminism" is mostly about people showing off about how kinky and accepting they are of everything. It almost gets competitive, it's weird. Oh yay, you like anal sex with nipple tassels and whipped cream, go you. Why? How is that activism? Why would anybody want to know the details of somebody else's sex life unless they want to be in it? It actually reminds me very much of the playground talk of my generation, the first porn-infested generation, if you like. Internet video was suddenly accessible in 2003. The vast majority of us were more internet savvy than our parents. Nobody had "net nanny" software and anyway it was primitive, any school kid could get around the school internet blocks, it was the same at home. 2005, picture phones were suddenly cheap. Then video phones in 06/07. I can tell you specific instances of porn that I saw on each of those media not very long after they were available. I cannot tell you how many cock photos I received on chat/IM sites because I don't remember all of them, they were that commonplace.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:30

Ach, anal sex has been around since the beginning of time, but it used to have a bit of a taboo attached to it. Now it appears to be a 'requirement' or something.

I think this hits the nail on the head, TeWi:
"Looking back, I do think there is a lot of pressure to be seen as cool and liberal and up for anything for girls, and for boys to want to do everything even if their partner doesn't seem interested."

There is pressure on girls to allow all sorts and pressure on boys to 'want' it.
It is no longer a 'niche', anal, fisting, shaved everything (girls AND boys), cum on face etc. You either like it or you're frigid.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:30

Anal sex was illegal in the 70's? I didn't know that Blush

HumblePieMonster · 19/08/2014 21:23

my ex used to try to have anal sex with me in the 1970s. happily, I could remind him it was then illegal. but men wanted it. not sure how they heard of it (from each other? he never read a book so it couldn't have been that).

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 21:17

I am trying to prepare myself for actually sitting down and having a talk with DS (and future DC) about porn. I don't think it's a case of leaving acceptable stuff around (which is also DH's idea) - I think that it's so open now they are going to come across it elsewhere anyway. I know there's still a level of embarrassment and keeping it private etc, but the thing is from just typing "porn" into google you get access to all sorts and even if you have a ban, software etc, not all parents will.

StandsOnGoldenSands · 19/08/2014 21:17

I would love to hear a sex positive third wave feminist discuss their position in the light of this thread.
I have just never understood how they can believe it. I'm willing to be persuaded and always have been, but me and feminist activism fell out when third wave became all 'yay sexeh'.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 21:16

The routine pressure to give/receive anal and other practices like ejaculating on a woman's face, shaved pubes/bald fanjo is definitely a product of the past 20 years, IME.

poorbuthappy · 19/08/2014 21:09

I worry for my 3 girls.
Well in a way I don't because they have me for a mum and I will deal with all the horrible stuff because I have to prepare them off the world. But Christ. I ain't looking forward to it.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:08

I wonder how much sexual liberation and then the sudden panic surrounding HIV in the mid 80s has warped this carefree sense of fun, recreational, safe sex?
There is also this weird idea that anal sex is preferable because it cannot lead to pregnancy Hmm.

I feel v strongly that girls AND boys need to be taught that early penetrative sex is not a requirement to be cool or with it and that saying 'no' is absolutely fine. As is saying 'yes' in a caring and yes, horny, context. But again to really want sex, you'd need to find it pleasurable, wouldn't you? Sad

We have a strict FB/Instagram ban here - I am so glad I am still able to say 'not allowed until you're 13'. I know that is not the solution, but hey ho, I take my reprieve where I can get it.

badasahatter · 19/08/2014 21:00

My daughter is 13 and has very little interest in boys right now. She won't admit that she fancies boys, though I know she does, and until she does, she won't have 'the chat', whatever that may constitute.

So far, I've told her that she should never be involved with anyone, male or female, that doesn't put her first and consider her needs. She is a lovely girl and needs to respect herself and her own needs and wants. She should never feel forced or coerced into doing anything.

The next step will be me telling her that boys will ask her to do stuff, but she can always say no, unless she wants to say yes. And she should weigh up the risks of anything she says yes to as well.

So far, she's a kid who doesn't feel the need to say yes to her friends just because they're her friends. She's shunned Facebook, Instagram and all forms of social media so far. She's proving herself to be quite strong in most aspects of peer pressure. I know that may not last, but for now, I'm thankful for that.

I've talked about porn to her and said how silly it all is at the moment and that it should never be used as a norm. Hopefully, she'll take that on board, even though I haven't talked about much in detail.

I hope, that by laying the foundations with her, that she'll know what to do when the time comes. I also hope that there will be boys out there, raised by good women, like you mums on here, who will have similar standards instilled in their upbringing.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 20:59

Looking back, I do think there is a lot of pressure to be seen as cool and liberal and up for anything for girls, and for boys to want to do everything even if their partner doesn't seem interested.

I feel like sexual liberation got hijacked. And I do think it's really important that girls are taught about enjoying sex and that they can say no, because that really does seem to have been lost somewhere along the way.

JustTheRightBullets · 19/08/2014 20:55

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 20:54

Tinder is an app, you see pictures of people in the local area, swipe right if you like them, left to reject, if you both swipe right you can talk to each other (and arrange a fuck, though obviously they pretend it's not just for that) one of the founders is being investigated for sexual harassment...

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 20:50

It's an app where you can see who is nearby and up for it as well and meet for a fuck I think.

We used to call it "going to the pub" Grin

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 20:49

What the hell is 'tinder'?

Vacillating · 19/08/2014 20:48

Normal well you know vaginal with the same person...

Vacillating · 19/08/2014 20:47

My younger single male friend finds the whole situation for him and his male peers depressing. These are educated professionals in well paid work who travel widely and are good friends. They do endless porn and get sex via tinder he doesn't so either thinking it damages him and his perception of sex and he wants love, kids what he thinks of as a normal relationship that unfolds into sex. He thinks that they are all fed up of it and wish they had never got to the point they are in now where normal sex is hard to sustain.

Rafflesway · 19/08/2014 20:46

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.