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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:21

I've been watching Parenthood (US drama/sitcom thing although not really a comedy) and two characters were literally in tears at the realisation that their 16yo daughter was having sex Confused This is just alien to me and seems so wrong. They liked her boyfriend and they had talked to her about safe sex. Maybe I'll have a different perspective when mine are older but it just seems bizarre.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:19

I can see it happening in Africa :( The situation for women there is generally beyond dire, though.

CaptChaos · 19/08/2014 22:19

No, it's a really old thing. A lot of very religious people who have to show blood on the sheets have been going in for it for a good while.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:18

Oh god yes, how weird. Probably 95% flaccid or semi. Mostly semi. I didn't think anything of it because at the time I hadn't seen a real one so I didn't really know the difference.

I heard about the "anal doesn't break purity" thing but always thought it was an urban myth TBH.

HumblePieMonster · 19/08/2014 22:14

Men regularly asking or pestering for it, expecting it, making out you were frigid if you didn't want it
that's exactly how they were about vaginal entry in the mid 70s. if you wanted to wait, you were 'frigid'. so there's been a cultural shift. interesting.

CaptChaos · 19/08/2014 22:10

Yeah, purity pledges... setting women and girls up for a lifetime of being gatekeepers to sex. Seen any boys at those pledge parties? Nope, me either, but then boys are supposed to sow their wild oats, just not with 'good' girls, or at least good girls who won't let them fuck them up the arse.

The havoc caused by Christians of all stripes in Africa is a cause for huge sadness Pacific The Catholic church and it's insistence that condoms are works of the devil in countries where the cancer that most men die of is Kaposi's Sarcoma and children are left orphaned every day because their mother's have died of AIDS. Yeah.... getting off my soapbox now, because I'm derailing.

stinkingbishop · 19/08/2014 22:08

Just had an interesting chat with DP about this over a romantic dinner, as you do.

He nodded along with porn, but also said that in some cultures it's seen as 'safe sex'. He worked in Africa for a while and it was done to preserve the girl's hymen for marriage and also, in some cases, there was a mistaken belief that you couldn't get HIV that way (obviously what would happen was condoms were more likely to rip, if they were even worn, so...) Plus - this is generalising HUGELY - what with FGM and all, a girl's pleasure/pain just wasn't seen as relevant.

He wondered therefore whether that attitude might have slipped out with migration/general cultural influence.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 22:08

I don't understand why people seem to find it hard to speak to their children, even young children, about how their bodies work. The mechanics of sex and reproduction are easy to explain IMO (a few picture books help) - it's all the other shit that's hard to get right.
Don't do anything, YOU don't want to do (boys and girls)
If it does not feel right, it probably isn't right (boys and girls)
No means no (boys)
You don't HAVE to have sex to be popular/cool/liked (boys and girls)
Any boys pressurising you to have sex is not worthy of you (girls)
Any 'friend' who makes fun of you for not wanting/having sex, is not your friend (boys and girls)
You are great just as you are (boys and girls)

I could go on - you'll be relieve to hear I am going to bed. Somewhat depressed.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 22:05

Yes, Seven parents aren't great at it. Mine certainly weren't, and I'm determined not to repeat that mistake.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 22:04

Yes, it needs to be in school.
But also wider society: parents, other family, neighbours, friend's parents etc etc.

And, IMO, sex education is not primarily about sex, it needs to be about self-esteem, 'self love' in the purest meaning of the word, respect of others and oneself and generally being a nice person (gawd, I sound wet).

CaptChaos, don't get me started on that purity heinousness - the havoc in recent years being wrecked in Africa by born again 'christians' (I don't believe they are christians in a sense that Christ would have recognised) and their stance on homosexuality, premarital sex, masturbation is just so damaging and hard for me to watch.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 22:03

I know this was written from the British side of things, but across the pond there is a lot of pressure on young women who have made purity pledges to indulge in anal sex, because it's not 'real' sex.

Bloody hell, I'm shocked that a girls first sexual experience could be anal. Shock

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 22:01

The problem as I see it is that kids are only 5 clicks away from proper depravity online. That's happened faster than the slow-moving education system can cope with.

I'd be delighted if my 11 year old daughter had a lesson about consent as part of her sex ed. And, telling her that sex with the right person can be fecking magic. And, that equally, doing stuff with the wrong person or at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons is fecking horrific.

They see stuff that's abuse whilst their brains are hardwiring into adult form. That's going to have a long term impact on how they think.

My sons need to be protected from accidentally becoming rapists, and, my daughter from unwittingly becoming a victim.

Steubenville is what springs to my mind when I read that report: wiki link to triggering case in USA

Our kids are lost. Am thrilled to see that high school consent project, bloody good for them.

Darkesteyes · 19/08/2014 22:00

expatinscotland Tue 19-Aug-14 19:32:35
I was a teen in the 80s and do not have any experience of men badgering for anal, 'slipping it in' or any such.

But when I became single in 1999 there was a definite shift! Men regularly asking or pestering for it, expecting it, making out you were frigid if you didn't want it.

I was a teen from 86 to 93 and i agree. So i reckon the lads mag culture contributed as well.

Flora. I dont mean to come across as nit picky but it was Elle who interviewed Sasha Grey not Marie Claire.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:59

When I was a teen a lot of the religious girls gave blow jobs instead of vaginal sex, looks like that has shifted to anal instead of oral.

But yes I'm sure it's down to porn too.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:58

yes I agree alpaca and of course very few parents in the scheme of things are going to be sitting down with their kids and talking to them about all this stuff. Parents are notoriously rubbish at doing that. That's where the whole leave it to the parents idea falls down. The parents don't do it.

It needs to be in schools.

I also think that single sex as well as mixed sex groups are good for this aren't they? Disclaimer - I know sod all about sex education!

CaptChaos · 19/08/2014 21:57

I know this was written from the British side of things, but across the pond there is a lot of pressure on young women who have made purity pledges to indulge in anal sex, because it's not 'real' sex. However, in the UK, it's definitely because of porn.

I was also a 'girl about town' in the 80's and I remember men just being happy to be there, rather than pushy and nasty, it was how you could tell which ones were the pushy and nasty ones were.

I cannot imagine a scenario where fisting could ever be seen as ok.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:56

Well, I'm determined to have a very open talk about sex with my DC (if I am ever lucky enough to have any).

I think we are doing the next generation a disservice by not giving them comprehensive sex education in schools. It's important that they hear it at school (as well as home). It's important they hear the message with their peers.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:50

I don't think they'd get anywhere trying to prosecute for anything, angeltulips. I can't even imagine it being suggested TBH. Except in cases where it was obviously rape.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 21:48

Quite a lot of people don't seem to realize that some penis('s is ii?) get longer and wider when erect...

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 21:47
  • thing
SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:47

I wonder why consent is not on the curriculum.

Concern about more children being taken out of classes?
Just out of date and no thought gone into what children actually need to know?
Something else?

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 21:47

It's funny - the PP who described what it was like in the 70s made me smile as I remember my mum telling me she had lots of kisses without tongues and me thinking "what did you DO then? How square and quaint!" I couldn't even comprehend how it was possible to snog someone properly without tongue

I worry that's what our children think when we say the same think about anal sex Hmm

I guess they are going to start prosecuting some of these cases as gbh where there is serious injury - maybe that will bring matters to a head and remind young men and women of the consequences of it

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 21:45

Thanks alpaca. I am utterly genuinely baffled by the fact that "cock shots" are flaccid. I literally do not understand.

Still never mind, one to ponder another day probably. Sorry for sidetrack

JohnFarleysRuskin · 19/08/2014 21:43

Ds(13) learnt about sex in phse last term, I was disappointed that consent was not covered.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:43

Oh and I don't think they were sent boys. Most 'boys' would say they were 14/15/16/17 but then claim later on that they were 20+ I'm sure a lot of them were even older.