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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
LePamplemousse · 19/08/2014 23:09

Oh and I know this is totally anecdotal, just my experience, and other women do enjoy anal sex. But many of my friends have experienced similar pressure and persuasion from boyfriends; it seems almost endemic within certain groups of men.

LePamplemousse · 19/08/2014 23:07

Having had my boyfriend at university a few years back repeatedly and consistently pressure me for anal sex, and having eventually given in on two occasions (hating it) this doesn't surprise me at all.
A man who never would have dreamed of pressuring me for 'regular' sex if I wasn't in the mood waged a steady and persistent campaign of persuasion. Mainly the way he eventually persuaded me was by mentioning it so often that I ended up feeling like I was somehow 'less' for not doing it, and eventually gave in and did it when I was drunk so didn't feel much. Still regret it now though because I didn't enjoy it at all and it was all for him.

Darkesteyes · 19/08/2014 23:06

That report is harrowing.

But having grown up in a repressive (Catholic) household is no better. The result is the same......that women arent allowed to enjoy sex. The Madonna/whore complex is rife.

People saying that it is preferable very likely havent experienced it to this degree. And i do mean to the point of having to listen to my DM victim blame rape victims.

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 23:05

Most absolutely nodding along with you about consent.

And, it starts young - my 10 year old had an innoncent smooch with a beau on holiday. "so, I hear there was a kiss?" "NO! Well, I did, but, only for a bet, mum"

She was then subjected to a long and detailed monologue chat about how she should only kiss people because she WANTS to.

Jeezo.

Loveneverfails · 19/08/2014 23:05

In the 90's I lost my virginity to rape by my 'boyfriend' who loved to watch porn videos and had no idea of seeking consent.

I did not know how to say no or that I could.

I still struggle with the fact he vaginally raped me. If it had been anal too or only anal I think it would have been worse for me for some reason as I did not even KNOW that this was part of anybody's sex life options.

I was so naive. This was in the mid nineties.

I break my heart for young girls today. I know how hard it has been for me to feel like a slab of beef used for pleasure.

ScarlettlovesRhett · 19/08/2014 23:04

I was sexually 'about' from 1990 to 2000 (when I met husband), I agree re anal not being the norm. I was very active and had one 'accidental slippage' where he was told to fuck off, and towards the end of the decade was asked maybe twice to try - said "no" and was not coerced any more.

I blame lads mags in the late 90s for normalising it all and then obviously the internet for making it so easily accessible and available for the young teens to start believing it as the norm.

I am so glad I am not a teenager now, it is a very different world; it's as hard for the boys as it is for the girls I think, and I worry for them all.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 23:00

Bertie, were the pictures you were sent from guys you knew?

The pics I got weren't from guys I knew, just randoms on the Internet chat rooms. ( Which is why i likened it it men in the local park flashing) I don't remember them ever asking for pictures of me naked. This was all around 2002/2003, though.

MostWicked · 19/08/2014 22:59

This is such a difficult subject and I do think that the focus should be on teaching consent, not preaching about what constitutes good and bad sex. Making women feel dirty for enjoying things that some other women have decided is disgusting, is not helpful.

I was a teen in the 80s. I had shaved pubic hair and tried anal sex. It was my choice, not something that I was pressured into.
Now in my 40s and happily married, I regularly enjoy anal sex and continue to shave. It is not for everyone, I wouldn't criticise anyone for not wanting to do it, but I do find that when I talk about it, I am criticised and told how wrong it is that I do it.

Consent is what matters. That is what I have talked to my teenage sons about. If we continue to claim that some acts are bad, teens will wonder what the fuss is all about and some will be more curious and want to try them, some will enjoy them. Consent is the key. Anal sex is fine between 2 consenting people.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:52

I guess maybe these blokes are just really fucking stupid if they can't work out that in a sexual context an erect penis is the preferred state Hmm

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:50

They can be like that Alpaca, but no in my experience most of the ones I received, the guys generally seemed to think we wanted it. And of course I was taught that men are so very very fragile and sensitive about their appendages so I could never say "Ew, why the fuck would you send me that?" and/or "I'm not interested in looking at your penis" in case it gave them a complex so usually we would roll our eyes at the mystery of boys and then continue as usual.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:47

The thing is, I don't think any of us understood either. We used to think it was shocking, then hilarious, then just boring and annoying.

They'd ask you for a pic of your tits or your face and they'd send one of their cock flopping around, I don't know why? I suppose because they thought it equivalent and they didn't want to be asking for photos without offering something in return. It's the only real thing they have which is a mystery, TBH, they wanted boob shots, fanjo shots, they sort of had to offer something (trying to get into the mind of a clueless perv here) and a nice chest or arm is probably wishful thinking a bit weird. And 99% of the time we were all like "No. Creep." so you'd think that by now, 10 years later, the internet pervs would have realised that a flaccid cock photo is not a suitable enticement for a boob photo in return.

I used to have webcam sex don't judge me, it just seemed like the thing to do at the time with boyfriends I was going out with in real life and I'd have to ask them multiple times "Please point the camera at your face, your reaction is sexy to me" whereas they were really not keen on face shots my end and wanted to see the "action" Hmm I gave up after a couple of times because it was just boring, really. What had seemed like an exciting and fun idea just became an exercise for them in how to get as many naughty body parts on camera as possible.

Corygal · 19/08/2014 22:47

This report is just revolting. The base issue is consent, isn't it - and getting over the idea that withholding consent is the same as frigidity. So women get hit by the double standard again, but from a different angle.

I could shoot those third-wavers who think that saying they're up for anything somehow means they're representing all other women. Ewww, but don't you feel sheer disgust for the male teens out there - shuddering physical revulsion. Who could want one long term?

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 22:46

It seems to me that the flaccid cock shots are more 'man in a mac flashing in the park' Seven

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:40

agreed angel that however much we talk to teens, peer pressure and the natural teen drive to try new stuff and do everything and now is going to be difficult to overcome.

Also I can tell DDs to only do what they want etc til the cows come home but if they like someone / think everyone is doing it / have quite compliant personalities it won't help much as frankly it often didn't in our day.

This is why they need to tell them in school and start it young and repeat it often, its the only way t try to mitigate it.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:37

No I've never been sent a cock pic either.

And as they are apparently all flaccid, I don't feel like I've missed out, quite frankly (only half joking. because flaccid. why? what on earth is the point? still totally baffled).

I assumed the point of the cock pics was to say look at my magnificant mighty erection, bet you'd like a bit of that. A pic like that may be welcome or unwelcome, depending on circs, but at least the thinking behind it is understandable. Why the fuck would a man send a woman a picture of his flaccid dick?

Sorry I know I seem to be unhealthily focussing on this but simply do not understand.

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 22:35

Hmmm I wonder - you're probably right

Because it strikes me that where this is different from other "sex trends" is its capacity to do damage

All the stuff about waiting, self respect, enjoyment etc - all that was there when we were young. And I knew loads of girls who did things they weren't comfortable with in the name of being cool thanks to my overachieving girls boarding school, that and eating disorders were de rigeur

But the physical consequences are so different. I can't get my head around it.

ThisIsBULLSHIT · 19/08/2014 22:34

I have spoken too my 11 yr old dd about porn and expectations of boys because of this. I have told her than any experiences she has sexually have to be because she enjoys them.

She listened carefully so I am hoping I have got this right.

11 sounds so young but it didn't feel too young to discuss it. We are pretty open conversation wise.

Greythorne · 19/08/2014 22:32

Oh, I like like to think I am a bit of a gadget geek, but I have never, ever in all my years if iwning Palm Pilots, iPhones, iPads, laptops etc. Received a single picture of a penis, flaccid or otherwise.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:31

sorry that was to angel, thread moved on!

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:30

Maybe. If the girl isn't under 16 and there is no accompanying violence (ie he hasn't beaten her up) and she has agreed to it however unenthusiastically then I'm not sure at all.

It's hard enough to get rape prosecuted. Damage due to a consensual sex act between over 16s - I just can't see that going anywhere.

I don't think a hospital would call the police for an injury of this type unless as you say the patient was underage and / or there were concerns that the activity had not been consensual.

I could be wrong, though, this is just what I'm thinking based on how other stuff gets treated.

Greythorne · 19/08/2014 22:30

As well as the emphasis on anal sex, I feel sad that for young people everything seems to have to happen at once.

When I was a teen, it was holding hands at the cinema, following by snogging, following by "heavy petting" then PIV and oral sex later. Anal did not figure in my teen years at all and not even anecdotally.

Now it seems young girls self impose hairless genitals. Blowjobs are seen as the most minor sexual contact, with PIV also very basic and anal nothing extraordinary.

Shocking and saddening. I also feel old.

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 22:30

It's difficult for parents to talk to their kids about sex because often the parents don't have a great education about sex themselves.

And, also, obviously, often parents are very uncomfortable about the prospect of their children becoming sexually active. We don't get much information about what help and support they need, there's a need for an Annabel Karmel for wanking as well as weaning.

Sex ed isn't something that finishes when you are 17, by the way. We need it to continue - we need new information when pregnancy/infertility/post-natal/menopause/illness/older age start to make their way into our lives.

So, teachers - what scope is there for you to bring consent/discussions about porn/sexual practices other than penis-in-vagina? Is sex ed a specialism, or a part of standard teacher training? (excuse my ignorance about education. I know a lot about bumholes instead)

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:29

Frigid is such a horrible damaging word isn't it?

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 22:25

7zark7 - shades of R v brown no? Violent anal sex resulting in rectal damage on an underage girl might be something deemed to be so far across the line as worth prosecuting?

goodasitgets · 19/08/2014 22:22

Porn is a taboo subject on this board, I know. But have watched a number of interviews with a particular porn star, and she is so open and honest. I love this that she said about anal sex

Dani: "I have no plans for anal. I don’t do anal in my private life and I don’t enjoy it one bit. I don’t plan on selling out my asshole for porn so unless I wake up one day and magically like it in the butt, anal is a no for me"