Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Working Women in History

61 replies

CKDexterHaven · 18/08/2014 15:37

I was thinking about the way history is taught, and even the way feminism is taught, and how it erases the work of working class women from the story. The narrative seems to go that women first got exposed to the world of work during the two world wars and then the sexual revolution of the 1960s was the first time women got to go out into the world of work. What is really meant is that women started to work in the middle-class professions and skilled working-class trades that they had been disbarred from prior to the twentieth century.

I've read that women do the majority of the world's work today because the majority of that work was gruntwork. It was ever thus. Not only have women done domestic work and service but they worked down mines, they worked in mills and factories, they worked as street hawkers, they nursed plague victims, they gutted fish, they picked crops, they sifted brick-dust, they collected street manure, they worked as bouncers ... all back-breaking, hard, physical, unpleasant labour.

I think the 'women started working in the twentieth century' narrative gives rise to the idea that women were delicate, sheltered, maternal creatures kept by chivalrous, bread-winning men and maybe it would be better for women if things went back that way. It also gives rise to the idea that all society's ills are caused by working women either stealing men's jobs or neglecting the family home when, in reality, not many women could afford to be just housewives. You also get men like Billy Connolly moaning about how manhole covers should never be called personhole covers because women's libbers never want to do the dirty jobs like working down a sewer, ignoring the fact that women have always done and still do a lot of the dirty work.

Any other examples of the jobs women have done in history that break down the myth of the delicate, cushy life of kept women?

OP posts:
LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 18/08/2014 20:55

this is long but interesting contemporaneous account of conditions in a mining town. Obviously he's viewing it from a particular slant but it's fairly unbiased I think. Of course there's no acknowledgment that if you were so poor you'd sell your own shit for extra money that disappearing down a whisky bottle seems like a reasonable alternative.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/08/2014 20:55

True, I'm not knocking the suffragettes, just thinking that shaped things.

My granny was also from a mining family (in Wales. Don't think you were allowed to have other jobs than mining if you are born working class in Wales Grin). But she was very lucky and did go to grammar school, and got her school cert. I wish now I'd talked to her more about her family, but until she was very sick she was too proud to talk about it, which is really sad. I know little snippets that give me a picture, though - like that she got given wedding china because she married 'up' and her sister didn't because her sister married the sort of person her parents expected. When my granny died aged 84 her sister still wanted the wedding china!

I think part of the problem in her generation was people almost didn't want to admit women worked hard because it was seen as bettering yourself if you made out you didn't. So you had people like her who wouldn't really discuss what her mother or aunties did, because she'd got out of all that.

It's sad, I think.

HumblePieMonster · 18/08/2014 20:55

No idea, LRD. Thinking about my family, the women who had to work (husbands dead or deserted them, or single) always worked. My gran worked after from the 1920s. Both my gran and mum, when they married, had shops so they could work and be at home at the same time.

Owllady · 18/08/2014 20:54

Yes, they were filmed in the Edwardian era. They are really interesting if you are interested in social history (and costume Blush)

grimbletart · 18/08/2014 20:52

My grandmother was a classic example of working women. She and her husband had a market garden. She worked on it from dawn until dusk, digging, planting etc. Then in season she would bundle up all the produce, getting up at dawn to do it and take it to market to sell by pony and trap. Oh, and she had eight children (+ two who died young) and made all her family's clothes, including her husband's suits.

This was from the late 19th century through the 20th until arthritis stopped her working.

It's extraordinary to think where this woman as a non-worker came from. Bizarre.

CKDexterHaven · 18/08/2014 20:52

Are the Mitchell and Kenyon films the ones where they filmed people leaving their workplaces? I remember the announcer saying some of the men and women leaving the factories, who looked about 70-ish, were only probably in their 40s and then commenting on the low life-expectancies brought on by the hard and dangerous work.

OP posts:
Owllady · 18/08/2014 20:49

Yes but along the same lines without women like emmeline pankhurst where would any woman be now. It would just be nice to be represented. My gran is a clever woman and despite passing her 11+ and getting a grammar school place was denied the opportunity as her parents were miners too and she had younger brothers that may need to go and they couldn't afford more than one uniform. She left school at 13, had her first baby in her teens, worked and worked and worked. She gas never been represented in any recollection of era's I have read or researched. History should cover all of us. There's nothing wrong with being middle or upper class, but working class women were and are important too. I feel that although things have moved on we still have less of a voice or its an inappropriate one, coupled with desperate celebrityism but maybe that's controversial

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/08/2014 20:44

Cross post - no, will check them out, thanks.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/08/2014 20:44

humble, that's got me thinking about WWI - because I think they promoted the same idea after that, that women should give up the jobs they'd taken on to men coming back. But how did it work economically? Because there was a whole generation of women who never married, wasn't there? Were they encouraged to work, or was it still seen as bad form to 'deprive' men of work?

Owllady · 18/08/2014 20:43

Have any of you seen the Mitchell and Kenyon films? I find them very enlightening about how the poor lived, men, women and their children but yes mainly women and children

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/08/2014 20:42

Hi owl. Smile

Along similar lines, I was thinking how while the suffragettes did wonderful things, it's hard to get away from how middle/upper class they were, so I think that also slanted how people looked at feminism and work.

HumblePieMonster · 18/08/2014 20:40

I live in the northwest. Women here worked in cotton mills, before that they worked with the family making woollen cloth. Being married didn't stop them. A [maternal] great aunt of mine took in washing, my [paternal] great grandma made meals to take away (yes! from home, not a shop), both paid for those services by married women who worked full time (1880 onwards). Grandmas looked after children, or children were left to fend for themselves while the women went to the mill.

After WW2 when men were demobbed, the working women of the time had to be encouraged back into the home to free up jobs. The model of the breadwinning husband and homemaking wife was promoted widely to accommodate this.

Owllady · 18/08/2014 20:39

Are NOT acknowledged!

Owllady · 18/08/2014 20:38

Sorry, I never post here but I come from a working class mining family, as does my husband and the fact working class women are acknowledged is something that grates tbh.

My gran is her late 80s and feels her and her colleagues efforts were not recognised historically during ww2 and that the concentration is always on the women's land army, who rightly or wrongly she perceives and projects as muddled class women. My gran worked for vickers

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 18/08/2014 20:31

I know a pp mentioned miners - I'm from a mining town which was known for the women going down the mine, but that was pretty unusual in the area. The people from my town are still known as 'dirty' locally - the inference being the women of the town were so busy mining for money they didn't have time to keep their bairns clean.

SevenZarkSeven · 18/08/2014 20:29

CaptChaos yes that happened to my great aunt too, she worked in a hospital and was told she would have to stop when she got married, luckily she was able to continue working on a self-employed basis outside of that.

It's really not that long ago.

SevenZarkSeven · 18/08/2014 20:28

Also of course there is the fact that women have always had a whole bunch of hard graft around pregnancy and children. Which has handily had the label of "work" removed from it and replaced with "satisfying expression of maternal instinct" or "sitting around" or whatever.

How is it that when sold the "different spheres" feminine ideal thing the idea that a woman perpetually pregnant / BF / giving birth, having babies and children hanging off her and having to look after them, source food for them, cook for them, keep them clothed and up to scratch roof over their heads as best she can is not doing any work Confused

SpeverendRooner · 18/08/2014 20:24

I read somewhere (don't recall where, so no reference - sorry) that there's evidence of women on warships in the days of sail. Camp followers on board, as it were. Apparently, there are references in ship's logs to them getting involved in fighting - bringing powder and shot from the magazines in battle at the very least. Since boarding actions were not uncommon at the time, I imagine that they were sometimes involved in hand-to-hand fighting, on the defensive side at least.

CaptChaos · 18/08/2014 20:18

The other thing that conveniently forgotten is that women were allowed to work until they got married. Even within my lifetime women in the Armed Forces were not allowed to be married and as soon as they were, they had to leave, their armed forces husbands however carried on with their careers. My DGM trained as a peadiatric nurse, but as soon as she was engaged to my DGF she had to give up, she then used her experience with babies in a clinic, weighing them Sad . An Aunt bonkers Oxonian chutney maker was a pioneer radiographer at Bart's during the war, the war ended and she had to leave. So it's been a bloody fallacy that women, even genteel women didn't work in the 20th century, they were actively prevented from working.

TheSarcasticFringehead · 18/08/2014 19:37

I haven't really thought about it before but I agree. My ancestors lived in a shtetl and it really was a woman based economy. My grandmother's family income was entirely from the stall that her mother, her and her sister ran. It seems most market stalls and many shops- selling tobacco too- were women run, as well as making things and being in charge of the housework. I was surprised as I'd thought it was very traditional...and it was traditional, just I hadn't been thinking about what traditional actually meant. Men were the ones who studied more, though, hence not working as much. I think the men studying, women working is still played out and is very noticeable in the statistics in the Haredi community nowadays?

PortofinoRevisited · 18/08/2014 19:22

And obviously there was the urge to join the War Effort by doing this stuff - munitions factories etc or joining the land girls or WVS.

PortofinoRevisited · 18/08/2014 19:20

Women moved to BETTER PAID work in WWI. They were working before - on farms, in domestic service, lots of home industries. My family tree is littered with market gardeners, servants, gloveresses, laundresses, char women etc. The move to take over the men's jobs gave them more money and more liberty in many cases - though they still never got paid as much as the "skilled" men. They weren't all sat on their arses before 1914.

PetulaGordino · 18/08/2014 19:17

I am no expert on this, but in contemporary novels you will often have the butcher's wife, baker's wife, candlestick maker's wife etc, and it seems that in addition to running the household they were expected to pull their weight in their husband's business too, plus sons and daughters once old enough

SevenZarkSeven · 18/08/2014 19:17

Yes it is.

It's really really odd. A clear win for the strict gender roles crew I guess.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/08/2014 19:13

seven - yes, and people often know their own grandmothers or great-grandmothers worked.

It's cognitive dissonance, isn't it? People know the truth but it doesn't fit the general narrative.

Swipe left for the next trending thread