This is he-man

True, it's not a great meme, obviously.

But I think it's worth saying that equality won't be achieved merely by convincing girls they can do and look like anything and still be female. Boys need the same message for the good of their female counterparts as well as their own wellbeing.

AMumInScotland

Yes - this! Because it's not just about Barbie - it's about photoshopping virtually every darn image that a young girl will see of a woman's naked or part-naked body, until her own body looks "wrong" to her, it's about headlines down the "Femail" sidebar, etc, etc. Barbie isn't really the problem, she just represents a much much wider trend of critiquing women's bodies and making them feel that an impossible standard is what they should aspire to.

*men who think they've got more important things to do with their time.

Bad editing from me there.

I disagree that rolemodels for boys shouldn't overly concern feminists - if we want our daughters to grow up in a world where they aren't deemed responsible for all the shitwork in relationships then the Macho stuff has to go... Otherwise you end up with a generation of women who know it's not their job in life to do all the cleaning battling with men who don't think they've got more important things to do with their time...

This is why I really like some super pink children's shows like my little pony, yes the pink is undeniable but the rolemodel's for girls AND boys are great.

Percentage of the time girls are bombarded with images and prose which imply they should aim to be a pretty airhead

vs

Percentage of the time boys are bombarded with images and prose which imply they should develop huge muscles and wield a sword

People interested in promoting equality probably spend about the same proportion of their time raising awareness of the importance of these issues, as the incidence and depth of the problems.

Women's bodies to aspire to are all about being thin, fragile, tiny and having over the top sexual organs which means plastic surgery.
Men's are about muscles, strength and health. Both can be unrealistic of course but women are told don't eat and cut your body up whereas men are told be strong, confident, athletic. That's the key difference to me.

I agree with you, Buffy Also, in further answer to Dad's point about not letting DS wear superhero costumes as well as not letting DD wear princess outfits because both are harmful - not quite! The reason why boys/men are queuing at the cinema to see the harmful thing that they are supposed to aspire to (identified by DAD as "performance" rather than looks) is because the "performance" in question, here, is superpowers which, in thses storylines, are acquired by ordinary men having a supernatural encounter (radioactive spiders or whatever) and getting an extreme version of performance. This is, therefore, clearly extraordinary and fictional and makes for an exciting storyline. The female equivalent would be an ordinary woman being bitten by a radioactive parrot and acquiring an extreme version of looks and dress-sense - which may not make for such an exciting film.

Revolutionary idea, but if men are so pissed off about harmful hyper masculine tropes they could, oh I don't know, challenge them? Themselves.

Yes, but how are they going to find the time? Policing women challenging sexist tropes is time consuming, vital work.

Its the whole womens work thing Buffy, sure the women are doing it anyway whats one more thing .

I saw a disgusting meme on facebook a couple of weeks ago with the wonderful tag line Feminism:The right to hit a bitch completed with a comic picture of a smiling man with a drink in his hand. This delightful piece of shit had thousands of likes . Women come up against this crap in varying degrees every day. We are fucking sick and tired that the patriarchy just do not get it or don't want to get it. But we keep going. So menz if He Man bothers you so much then do what millions of women have been doing for centuries and do something about it.

Theres a sinister level or two of undercurrent to the linked picture. On one theres the silencing of women through their weird use of Double Standards and on another theres the implication of if we really want equality we must start campaigning for men too otherwise we are just a load of hot air.
Another 'thing' on our plates.

My 5 year old DS doesn't give a toss if the film's central character is male or female so long as it's a good film. So he likes Frozen, Tangled etc and also Toy Story and the Lego Movie.

Is that not true of all kids that age?

Interesting, Treats. Does cartoon Spider-Man make much of the back story?

Actually this kind of chimes in with a bit of a weird double standard I see - everyone is happy to attack the things that young girls like as being bad for them or a poor role model, but not to attack the things that young boys like - even though they're no better.

E.g. My 4yo DD loves her Disney princesses but mostly because they're practically the only films where women feature in central roles, which is what she wants to watch. But the world at large looks down on Disney princesses because they're all about looks and finding a man. I don't disagree with this, but there's a lack of anything better.

My 4yo nephew loves Spiderman and Batman. Now you could say that these aggressive, socially awkward loners are bad role models for young boys, but no - respected actors play them in big budget film versions that adults queue around the block to watch.

I don't get the superhero/ real person distinction - they're all stories about fictional people.

Please try to see this in masculine terms.

Body image is not commonly the can of worms for men that it is for women. Performance is the can of worms for men and adolescent males pay for it with a mortality rate that speaks for itself, loud and clear.

Saying he-man is a super-hero so it defeats the point of comparison to Barbie... you need to understand... it IS the point. The physique of he-man you identify with is incidental, that’s why spider man can be thin... as long as he has super powers he has what boys want him to have.

I would never dress my daughter as barbie and I would never dress my son as a super hero, essentially for much the same reason.

are you thinking that feminists all give a fuck about what barbie looks like?

But feminists don't promote the He man ideal though.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

"I do think we feminists could stop promoting the he man ideal, though."

Ok, I'll scrap the "Equal Pay for Equal Shirtlessness" posters...

And much is made of barbie having "careers", but the emphasis is still on her looks. Sure, barbie can be a doctor but only if she's wearing pink high heels, hair perfectly coiffed, mini skirt on.

Its the context though. Barbie, alone, is not that damaging, if she was one of many children's characters aimed at girls, just one emaciated vapid twit alongside characters showing women with real bodies doing awesome things, being strong and accomplished. But alongside all the Disney princess crap and the many, many other ways girls are taught to be "the weaker sex", from birth, barbie is a problem.

Are boys being taught that they're there to look a certain way, regardless of their intelligence or individual strengths and talents? No, so a muscular superhero toy is not such a problem. In fact, where are all the female superhero toys?!

"I do think we feminists could stop promoting the he man ideal, though."

But feminists don't promote the He man ideal though.

It's not really up to feminists to actually take the lead on fighting for men's issues, although supporting them is a good thing. Having said that I think feminists more than anyone see and point out the damage that these extreme warrior ideals of masculinity do to boys and to society.

Ha yes Apocalypse. I'll petition to get it removed from the manifesto

So to find a comparable male unrealistic body standard to Barbie who has been consistently popular for decades, they had to go back to a cartoon from the 80s?

I just asked my 5 year old. He knew who Barbie was instantly, but didn't have a clue who He-Man is. He is, however, familiar with Spider-Man etc, who have far more 'normal' body shapes.