"Women against feminism" WTF?!!

Women only changing rooms or swim times. Can a transwoman access these? Should a woman who (for whatever reason) does not want to show her body or be in an enclosed changing space with someone of the opposite sex be made to share that space with a transwoman? If that transwoman is still (in blunt terms of penis and vagina) a man?

Should a woman have to share a prison cell with someone who is, again with the blunt terms of genitalia, a man?

How can one women infringe on the right of another? All women are equal.

I would fully support legal moves to challenge any restrictions on (transgendered) women accessing services that other women are able to access.

Even if them accessing those services infringes on the rights of the women already using them?

That would be the choice of the patient - although I would doubt very much whether the patient would be given that information about their GP.

Perhaps they aren't legally women in certain cases, but that is different from refusing them services etc which are aimed at women in order to fulfill a feminist agenda. I would fully support legal moves to challenge any restrictions on (transgendered) women accessing services that other women are able to access.

• I am born free
• Everything I want I can have
• I am not expected to undertake any distasteful or onerous task
• Everything I expend effort on is valuable, everything I don't expend effort on is worthless
• Any violation of these rules is an outrageous arrogation of power and must be instantly dealt with using as much force as necessary.
• The use of force is distateful but at times required, if there are casulaties then it is their own fault for trying to upset the natural order of things.
• I am a fundamentally good and charitable person and will prove this by acts of largesse and generosity from time to time as I see fit.

The Rights of Everyone Else

• You are not born free, your place in the world has been predetermined by nature.
• Everything you want is a utopian dream but keep clinging to it if it makes you happy.
• It is necessary to work hard and do things you don't want to - such is life.
• Everything you do is worthless which is why you don't get paid much if at all for it.
• Attempting to gain more than your lot in life is an outrageous arrogation of power and against the laws of nature - it is likely that the world will come to an end if you try.
• The use of force by you is completely unacceptable and an act of terrorism.
• You are a fundamentally bad person proven by the fact that you occupy such a lowly position - if you were a good person like me you would reap the reward as I have done.
• You need me to tell you what to do and protect you from yourself.

Agree Slarti.

I just don't think it's a clear as 'they are women' when it comes to rights to access and etc. Should someone who only wants to be treated by a female doctor, be treated by a Dr who was a transwoman?

Isn't it more, 'We don't know which of you are rapists, so we'll assume each one of you is'? And given that (almost) any man can rape at any time, even if he has never done so before or shown any inclination, there could never really be a time when any woman can safely assume that any man will not rape her.

But doesn't that argument extend to pretty much every threat or risk? If we said it about anything else though we would see it as quite offensive wouldn't we?

Replace the words man and rape with Muslim and terrorist and it's no less true. Heck, if an employer said that every female job candidate is a potential maternity leaver wouldn't we think they were an arse? And if a load of men then bleated "Ah but it's true so we can say it"?

Sorry, that was in response to the 'all men are rapist' posts.

Transgender women are not men though - they are women, with the same rights as every other woman (or they should be). If we continue to define everyone by the gender they are born with , regardless of where they are on the pathway, then we might as well call a halt to the transgender process now.

What tosh?

People really buy into that tosh?

Because women want to access spaces where they can be 100% of being safe from male violence. So if someone fled to a shelter, to find that they were sharing a space with, biologically speaking, a man, with a penis, is that fair?

Of course transwomen need space where they can be safe too, but I totally understand and agree with the argument that women (biologically born as women) shouldn't have to give up their safe spaces to transwomen.

Isn't it more, 'We don't know which of you are rapists, so we'll assume each one of you is'? And given that (almost) any man can rape at any time, even if he has never done so before or shown any inclination, there could never really be a time when any woman can safely assume that any man will not rape her.

Actually, the 'feminists calling all men rapists' isn't because of the quote.

Some feminists state that it is impossible for a woman to give genuine consent while the world is still so patriarchally dominated - social pressures still force women into sexual partnerships or acts which they would not otherwise choose if the patriarchy did not exist. As a result, it is possible to argue that no woman has ever given uncoerced consent to sex with a man and all men who have ever had 'consensual' sex with women are still, in fact, rapists.

It's a logical extension of certain feminist positions that have become mainstream. The main objection comes to the idea that women are completely without personal agency.

Of course - why wouldn't she be? Being female is not simply about having a vagina - and the idea that a woman who has yet to have her genitalia surgically removed should be prevented from accessing services for women on that basis is shocking. I'm not sure why (some/all?) feminists would think differently - I certainly see this as a negative aspect of feminism if that is the case.

But is a transgender woman, with male genitalia, a woman who has equal rights to access women only spaces?

Why differentiate? Transgendered women are women, surely?

I suppose it depends on what the purpose of identifying them as women would be.

So would a transwoman (potentially still with male genitalia) be classed as a woman and allowed in woman only spaces (say in prisons or domestic violence shelters for women only)?

But not recognised as a woman?

sirchenjin I thought it was that they would be transwomen, but not women?

Oooh - weird cross post!

Know it's a bit off topic, but can someone tell me if I've got this right - that (some/all?) feminists believe that because gender is a social construct, transgendered men to women cannot be recognised as women in the true sense?

I realise that I've probably just made a complete arse of myself there, and have probably completely misunderstood, but I've read a couple of threads which seem to suggest that

One that particularly annoys me is that male to female transgender is nothing but sexual fetishism and refuse to acknowledge anything else

Could you give me some examples of the negative aspects?

I think quite a few were given upthread, things like hate speech.

How can you take one negative thing you associate with feminism and dismiss the whole concept and NOT take even a fleeting glance at patriarchy or just the current set up pretty much everywhere and think the same thing?!

You're assuming anyone has rejected the whole concept and not taken even a fleeting glance at patriarchy.