"Women against feminism" WTF?!!

Really Moomin? You'd put your son in the same pink dresses as your DD in a similar pattern of regularity? All power to you (and your sons)! That's impressive!

2 LRD's there. They look like bookends to my sentence

LRD Ah I understand what you're saying LRD

I think with the catcalling thing, it might be because I see women as myself, and I see how I deal with things and I wish more women could feel able to do as I do. I know that's a terribly narrow-minded and linear way to think but I think we have some responsibility to ourselves to make an individual choice to stand up to it, rather than come online and collectively bemoan it without actually making much difference.

Hak I don't have sons but have explained in my last post :)

But why should my choices be feminist? What makes a feminist choice? Dressing my daughter in trousers, even though the weather makes it impractical?

I am from a sink estate and we never called it anything else. How is 'rough council estate' any more palatable, ffs? It's like fat people calling themselves 'curvy'. Dress it up however you like, these estates exist and no-one who lives there gives a toss about your patronising attempts to paint a more decorous picture of their circumstances.

And 'smile love' makes me want to punch someones lights out, which is why I answered 'I would if men like you didn't piss me off'. To which they usually stumble off muttering under their idiotic breaths.

morph - no, I'm saying we're all liable to be 'armchair feminists' in one way or another. Picking out examples of really important causes that many women in the UK are not in a position to support in more than a nominal or minor financial way, and saying these should be the only focus of feminism, seems to me likely to waste women's time and energy.

I'm not advocating that those of us who want to eradicate FGM (which surely is all of us?!) shouldn't get up and do something about it. It's just, realistically, how many of us really can? Are we qualified in any way?

Given for lots of us the answer is that we can't do much even if we want to, I see nothing wrong in supporting people who can help, but also having other causes to think about.

scallops Yep. Dresses have been a godsend this summer for DD, I'd have dressed a boy in them too! And today DD wore a green hoody and blue trousers, and spent most of her first couple of weeks in a Batman onesie and Wales rugby babygro. I don't select clothes based on their 'gender', I pick them based on what's practical and cute. It just so happens that I love the colour pink.

Since when has male intimidation of women been a 21st century problem Morphine?

When did women stop being able to stand up for themselves? It might just be my generation, or maybe even where I've been brought up, but cat calling gets a swift 'fuck off' and done's done - just as I'd do if a woman called me names in the street (which incidentally I used to get more of). I'm not saying women should have to stand up for themselves before you touch upon that, but instead of moaning online that someone has called you 'fit arse', have a comeback and shut the idiot up.

On another note, from what I've experienced both sexes are just as bad for cat calling now, maybe times are changing.

"I choose to dress my daughter in pink; not because she's a girl, but because I like the colour. I'll take my partner's surname when we marry because I prefer his to mine. Feminism should be concerned with making sure women know that it's a choice - not denigrating them for choosing to take their husband's surname."

The point here is that just because a woman makes a choice doesn't make it a feminist choice. And people need to be aware of the impact that their decisions make on other people.

Out of interest, do you dress your sons in pink too?

"Well, I am middle class and come from a long line of middle class people. One of the advantages of being middle class is that you have the time and the energy and the spare emotion and sometimes money to campaign on other people's behalf.

I actually feel ill."

Sorry about that. But I'm not going to put on a mockney accent and pretend to be what I'm not.

It's extremely easy to say 'I'm a feminist and happy with work being done on FGM'. If you'd like, I'm sure we could all sit around agreeing that it's terribly important and great stuff, and maybe donating the odd bit of money and patting ourselves on the back

So basically anything us armchair feminists - as I think this is sort of what you're saying - have nothing really to be happy about in terms of what we support?

But morphine, plenty of people are capable of doing both.

It's extremely easy to say 'I'm a feminist and happy with work being done on FGM'. If you'd like, I'm sure we could all sit around agreeing that it's terribly important and great stuff, and maybe donating the odd bit of money and patting ourselves on the back.

I don't think that's great, TBH.

At the other extreme, we could all quit our jobs and leave our families and go and physically restrain people from performing FGM.

That might sound terribly heroic, but most of us do not have the skills or training to do this (or even to work in more practical, less dramatic ways to help women in danger of this to learn how to get out, or to change societies). We might even be actively a hindrance.

I think it's better to accept there are lots of issues, and we don't have to choose just one or two to care about.

But why do so many people dress their girls in pink but not their boys Moomin? Would you dress your boys in pink and dresses?

A by product of feminism is choice. But feminism has always been about freedom from oppression.

Since when has male intimidation of women been a 21st century problem Morphine?

After doing reading, I consider myself a feminist - but I don't like that some feminists are criticising women for taking their husband's surnames, or not working, or dressing their daughters in pink. And I can see why some women wouldn't want to be associated with that, and would go as far as to declare themselves against feminism.

Surely it's all about choice? I choose to dress my daughter in pink; not because she's a girl, but because I like the colour. I'll take my partner's surname when we marry because I prefer his to mine. Feminism should be concerned with making sure women know that it's a choice - not denigrating them for choosing to take their husband's surname.

I think we need to focus on bigger issues rather than our 21st century problems. I'm particularly happy with the work being done regarding FGM and women's rights to free contraception in the US.

So you think women being intimidated by men isn't an issue we should worry about Morphine?

It's all part of the continuum of male violence. That is a major focus of feminism.

capt, I read a horrible paper published in 2014 that happily used the word 'moron'.

I'm really sick of this 'ooh, feminists whine and should be doing real help of women who need it'.

It always seems to come from people who don't propose to life a finger, but somehow feel they are uniquely qualified to decide that what feminists are already doing isn't enough. Cos obviously, if you are that sort of bone idle person, you can't conceive of people who could care both about poor women in the UK, and about women in other parts of the world, and about issues like the pay gap. That would be excessive, right? Almost as if you were somehow committed to, y'know, some kind of overarching movement to help women ...

What I want to see is more campaigns focused towards women who really need our help. Not concentrating on western women whining about being cat called in the street.

Wow! Now who is making sweeping generalisations. Ones that aren't actually true either. Women on sink estates often don't access free contraceptive advice though, although, I'll clue you in here, it's not because those women choose not to, or because it's not there.... can you guess why they might not?????

Just because a phrase is in academic papers, doesn't make it pleasant, palatable or reasonable. There are many academic papers, from not a long time ago which would have merrily called my DS an imbecile.

Anyway, quite what your ranting has to do with women against feminism I don't know. Or are you suggesting that, because you don't like the type of woman you believe most feminists to be, you're against it?

'Underclass' and 'sink estate' are to be found in academic papers in every university library if you would care to read them.

Oh, and women/girls from the underclass tend not to abort their children.

Well, I am middle class and come from a long line of middle class people. One of the advantages of being middle class is that you have the time and the energy and the spare emotion and sometimes money to campaign on other people's behalf.

I actually feel ill.

Well, I am middle class and come from a long line of middle class people. One of the advantages of being middle class is that you have the time and the energy and the spare emotion and sometimes money to campaign on other people's behalf.

Because it would be preposterous to suggest that there are whole swathes of the population subsisting at a socio-economic level beneath anything you've ever encountered.

Not really greedy, been there, done that. Am still a feminist.

What I would ask is, where is the father? Still there? Working? Is she in the UK? Did she have access to free contraception advice? Free abortion advice?

Your comments about schools and teachers were vile, btw, and don't bear any relation to any teacher I know, especially those who work in what you delightfully called sink estate schools. Sadly, no matter how many educational opportunities you offer some people, if they won't take them, you can't force them to.